Buffy The Vampire Slayer
Angel: Not Fade Away (spoilers-probably for all of Angel season 5, and a random BtVS S4 spoiler thrown in)
Disclaimer: I haven't seen Not Fade Away, or in fact most of season 5 of Angel since it aired, so I'm probably swiss cheesing episodes a bit. And honestly, if you haven't seen the whole season, turn back now. Also there's some season 4 Buffy spoilers.
In the thread about Getting Into Angel, @QuantumButterfly and I were trying to explain why someone should in fact watch Angel, and they happened to mention that the finale was a reason. I said I disagreed, but not wanting to spoil the OP I said I disagreed "because reasons".
They wanted to know the reasons, but neither of us want to spoil the OP, so new post!
I hated Not Fade Away with a passion. Some of that has diminished, thanks to the Angel "After the Fall" and "Angel and Faith" comics, both of which I highly recommend.
My issues were as follows: 1) Wesley. And the way he said "lie to me" so Illyria was Fred. Who said she loved Wesley. Now, I'm notoriously oblivious when it comes to subtext (I figured out Willow/Tara at the same time Buffy did), but that was a pairing that downright squicked me. (Not as badly as Wesley/Cordelia, but STILL). This may have roots earlier in the series, before the Illyria arc, when there were Men Fighting Over Fred that got to me on a subconsious level. That scene annoyed me. 2) The ambiguous ending. I understand it was on purpose, that they did that to keep the characters out and fighting in the world, but I found it horribly unsatisfying and as a personal "screw you" to the fans. At the time, on my LiveJournal, I posted that it wasn't our fault we hadn't been able to change the WB's mind, that Joss and David had been given plenty of time, why hadn't we gotten an ending? (I'm worried about the Grimm finale for this reason.) This has been softened somewhat by the comics (if you read After the Fall for no other reasons: George the Betta), but to this day I'm still a little frustrated, and still need to buy a couple seasons of Angel on DVD.
So, yes, QB, because Reasons. :)
I mean, Angel wanting to slay the dragon was cool, but the rest kind of put a damper on that high point.




Thanks for making this post, because I really did want to know!
So, going back to front, I think my biggest point of disagreement here was the ambiguous ending. Most shows wrap things up in a bow, but here we got not just an invitation, but a demand, to "fill it in yourself". Now, I say that having not read the comics, mostly because I know they wouldn't be the same as what I already have in my head. (Also, I'm just not really into comics as a media format). I actually came to the fandom years after it finished, so wasn't ever involved in its heyday. I imagine the finale was pretty controversial at the time.
Where I will agree with you is the Illyria stuff, but I never really liked her as a character anyway. And ugh, the whole "Fred is the prize we all want" thing was so bad. And I liked her character! I just liked her as an independent person, not an appendage.
I do generally like how Wesley developed as a character, although he was kind of a hot mess at some points, and I wish he could have lived to fight another day. I guess someone important had to die.
"Let's go to work"
Thanks for asking, because I was debating whether or not to make it.:) With regard to the comics, I was never very into comics, but then Joss dangled new Buffy, Angel, and Firefly from his outlines (or conspiracies, lately) in front of me and... created a monster? I have a pull list and a long box now.
I don't really know what was going on in fandom- I remember various opinions on my friends list at the time, but I was too busy for the big sites like the Bronze during the hey day (grad school), and the one corner I found in it went away with the character that we gravitated towards. (Probably because it was all yahoo groups at the time, so it wasn't like we were seeing each others' LJ posts still.)
We are definitely in agreement about Fred.
It seems my opinion on Not Fade away is yet another unpopular opinion that I hold in this fandom, if the other comments are to be believed.
I liked the ambiguous ending of Angel the series. I thought it was very fitting for the tone and themes of the show. It reminds me about Angel's speech in "Deep Down" about heroes and champions fighting to make the world a better place and how what's important is that they try and not their ability (or sometimes inability) to make a difference. On the whole, I think Buffy the Vampire Slayer is more optimistic in this regard, so I understand why Buffy might work for you and Angel wouldn't.
At the end of Buffy, they had won. At terrible cost, yeah, but it was a victory and they had hope.
The ending of Angel can be taken as a tiny band of survivors who are determined to continue the fight (optimistic) or as a last stand, knowing they'll die but deciding to go down fighting (pessimistic). And that's why I love the ambiguity.
And... however many years later you've put the finger on why I always liked Buffy better than Angel. (And it wasn't the main characters. Huh.) Thank you.
I have to say that I also was fine with the ambiguity of the ending. Whedon's world is a very ambiguous one after all so it seemed natural to me. But yes, Wesley/Illyria was kind of cheesy and that speaks to one of my underlying issues with the whole series. Some of the relationships and characters seemed forced at times throughout the series. So I felt that the overall character development in the series was less satisfactory than Buffy. Overall, it's a minor complaint though. I enjoyed the series on the whole.