social justice league chats
In your opinion, is it alright to seperate the art from the artist?
This is coming from a big Kanye West fan. I think he's an incredible artist and would defend a lot of the controversial things he's done until this year. However, starting with that time he tweeted "BILL COSBY INNOCENT" to all of his impressionable followers, I've found it more and more difficult to justify his actions. I'm still a huge fan: I'm going to see him for the first time in September and honestly couldn't be more excited, but from time to time I do feel a bit guilty about financially supporting him.
So, yeah, basically I just wanted to ask everybody the question that's in the title. Is it okay to seperate art from the artist, and if so, why?




I think you just have to separate them. Everyone has secrets and is a bad person in some way—it's just whether you know it or not. Almost every product you buy was probably the result of a company that is sexist or otherwise discriminatory towards its employees, outsources to other countries, possibly uses child/slave labor, uses materials/processes that aren't environmentally friendly, stands for an issue you disagree with. Just keeping track of all those things is exhausting. Trying to remember what you can and can't buy (especially when so many different brands are all convolutedly connected and owned by each other these days) and then trying to find substitutes and make sure those aren't also from a company you don't like for some reason just starts to get impossible to manage, and at some point practicality has to kick in. I know you're asking about artists specifically, but to me it's kind of all the same thing—do you separate the product from the creator or not? Idealistically, I would love to. Practically, I don't have the time, energy, or money to be able to do so. Plus Kanye has some good music, okay?
I think that's a very difficult concept; to me, the art IS the artist. And especially when you consider bigger artists, like Kanye, who make a ridiculous amount of money from their work, revenue almost looks like an endorsement.
For me, there's a line. I try to always digest and analyze the media I consume and recognize if something is problematic, even if I decide to continue to like it. But at some point, it becomes too much or too personal.
Kanye is actually a really good example to me because I went through the same struggle. Its hard to deny that he has an amazing talent and sense of music. I'm blown away every time I hear one of his songs. But his appropriation of Native American culture/music (I've heard a lot of complaints from this community specifically about the drum solos in Black Skinhead), his approval of pedophila (re Tyga), slut shaming, support of Bill Cosby...yeah at some point it becomes too much. At some point you have to ask, "Why am I ok with all of this? What does it say about me, as a supporter?"
I think it's up to each individual to do what they feel comfortable with. I doubt that there will ever be an artist or author that I agree with on everything. And nothing is going to be 100% perfect. So to me it's about the tipping point. Has this particular author or artist reached the point where I am no longer willing to support them? Some people simply don't care. They like what they like, and they're going to continue to get what they want. And that's okay. Others will get the media they like but won't contribute financially after a certain point. And others won't even get the media if the author or artist has past the tipping point for them. But you need to do what's comfortable for you.
I'm a big proponent of "Death of the Author." Rather than doing a terrible job of summarizing it here, I'd strongly encourage you to take a look at Barthes's writing on it.
With any given artwork the intent and attitude of the creator are irrelevant; art exists in the intersection of what's been created and what the audience/reader/viewer brings to the table.
That said, it's perfectly fine to refuse to patronize individuals who you disagree with. Just divorce your critique of their work from your critique of the individual. Clean your mind's palate. True objectivity is impossible, but do the best you can.
The Gamer says, "Don't like it, don't buy it." Ergo, if it's not sufficiently in line with my politics, all of it is instantly shit. Then I get to enjoy watching the Gamer lose his fucking shit over agenda-based buying. And that's beautiful.
If you're able to do that, more power to ya. As for me, it's very difficult to separate the art from the artist. If the artist does something really, really shitty, that detracts from my ability to enjoy the art. Since Bill Cosby was mentioned, I should note that I used to watch and listen to his routines on DVD and CD respectively on a regular basis. Since women started coming forward, however, I just can't anymore.
The same goes for Dilbert comics after I discovered what a raging misogynist Scott Adams is (and more and more of it started bleeding into his work).
I used to love listening to Lapfox Trax, then I read on a Steam community that he raped (or sexually abused) one of his admirers, and I quit listening to his songs. For several season I just had them stored on my harddrive, but recently I finally decided to just delete them.
It used to be that I’d feel sorry whenever a celebrity expired, only to soon learn that he was abusive (usually towards a girl or woman), and then my sadness for him vanishes.
I support horrible people all the time with my money. And people have consumed stuff I made, which had my unhappiness of being bossed around in its creation.
I go back and forth on it. And I'm very idiosyncratic about it in my own life. Can I still listen to the Beatles and enjoy it, even though John abused his wife? Yes, although I can't help but think what it must be like for that woman to walk through the grocery store and hear "Imagine" and know that everyone worships the man who beat her. I can listen to Cee-Lo songs I liked well before I found out he was a rapist, but not songs I really liked right before finding out. I can't and don't want to touch any of Bill Cosby's routines ever again. I haven't been able to listen to my Moxy Fruvous album again.
Whether or not it's "okay" i.e. ethical or leads to a better world... I mean, it probably doesn't. These guys keep getting a pass because they're insulated by world-wide love and adoration. But the hunger for art and music is such an intrinsic part of human nature... I think fostering a culture where any artist who abuses a person is dead to you, to me, to everyone, to drawing a bright line and saying "I'm okay with a culture that has less great art but more safe humans"... I don't think it's possible. Probably the better thing to do is raising a generation of artists (of humans in general) that would never think to abuse other people, to be misogynistic, homophobic, etc., etc. But that's, you know, I mean, so many people are trying to do that, and it's an uphill battle.
I've been mainly focusing on artists that abuse, by the way, rather than cases like Kanye, where they have misogny/other *isms in their lyrics or things they say. I think if we dump every artist who's not abusive but is an asshole, we'll go from "less art" to "no art period," probably. I dunno.
Also, I think compartmentalizing to a certain degree keeps us all from going insane.