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World Cup of Hockey
The games are set to begin Thurs with the pre-tournement games, with Sep 20th when they start actually counting.
The schedule can be found here: https://www.nhl.com/news/2016-world-cup-of-hockey-schedule-announced/c-778411
If you want to discuss teams or games, this would be the thread for it!
Also, feel free to discuss which players are suddenly coming up injured right before it starts, and whether or not that makes it the new All-Star Game. ;)




I just wanted to let people know that if you're in the US you can download the free ESPN app and watch all the World Cup games on that, rather than only being able to watch US games on TV. Sportsnet in Canada is also covering all the games and should have a similar app. For both you'd probably have to provide your cable company info so they can make sure you get either network, so this probably won't work for people outside the US or Canada, but I thought I'd put it out there for those it might!
I have to say I'm finding the whole thing quite odd. I am a newbie to hockey and the only experience I've had with any sort of World Cup prior to this is football (soccer). Representing your country in the World Cup for football is considered a big honour and it's very rare (as far as I'm aware) for players to drop out unless they physically are unable to play.
In the past few weeks I've seen a few players drop out because they want to focus on their NHL games. It just seems odd to me. I guess because this is only the second hockey World Cup is doesn't carry the prestige yet that other tournaments do.
Oh, and I'm rooting for Team Sweden :D
Ah then you must be very happy that reports of Lunvquist's injury were apparently greatly exaggerated. :)
There's been a running joke in hockey fandom about how so many players drop out of the ASG game because they would prefer a long weekend in Cabo then playing in what are basically unimportant games - which honestly I think the players are missing the point since the idea is to help the hockey fanbase by doing fun stuff. Anyway, there has been so many who dropped out in the past that the NHL instituted a policy that if you are selected to the ASG you must play or else be officially suspended for 1 game (which can actually be before the ASG game - so if someone actually is sick/hurt suddenly it doesn't penalize them any more necessarily).
Anyway, that was a long segue to get to this point - World Cup of Hockey hasn't been played in years (actually was only placed twice, in 1996 and 2004) and I don't think players really see it as an exciting (possible) replacement for the Olympics (World Cup is also on a 4 year rotating schedule), so it's basically taking 1 month off their off-season because the NHL/Bettman wanted to see if it generates fan excitement. And it MAY generate excitement just like the ASG does (sort of), that's to be determined. But it seems clear that not all the players particularly see it as a worthwhile disruption of their training that could impact their "real" team later in the season when their schedule is exhausting already. So, like with the ASG, suddenly there's a whole slew of "injuries" right before training camp starts.
I DO think many players actually do consider it an honor though and have stated that. So it does correspond to European football in that sense.
Thanks for explaining. That does make a bit of sense I guess. I have to be honest the ASG sounds more fun but I guess we'll see if the World Cup takes off this time or not. Really, there needs to be a regular schedule for it if it's going to generate interest with people.
I think the idea behind the 4 year gap is they want it to be "special" like the Olympics, which they are considering not allowing NHL players to play in. The Wold Cup was actually predated by the Canada Cup, which was started in the 70's and I THINK may also have run every 4 years.
The ASG is a lot more fun for fans - the players are in a loose jokey mood and it really makes it fun for viewers. My favorite previous fun ASG moments include: 1) Ovie pleasing to be last in the draft to he could win the car, but being selected 2nd to last. Later it was revealed he actually wanted the car to give it to a DC charity for disabled kids - and since he didn't win the car, he just bought one himself and donated it instead. Man, Ovie is a good guy! 2) Last year, Brett Burns dressed up as Chewbacca and PK Subban dressed as Jagr (with a long mullet). It was hilarious and like the start of some weird hair heavy mental band on skates. 3) Patrick Kane and John Scott's play fight last year - Kane is known for NOT fighting, ever, and Scott is known to be an enforcer type who was voted in on a troll vote and then the NHL accidentally backed into the best story in hockey - everyone loving John Scott. He and Kane were old buddies and thought it'd be hilarious to stage a fight - there's a foot of difference between them too. Hilarious! 4) Kids! Last year Brett Burns' kids and, um, one of his teammate's kids came out to do the shooutout (that's when most of the best gimmicks happen) in place of their dads. It was so adorable! Little kids on skates pretending to be their fathers! And the year before that Jonny Gaudrau took a kid from the crowd out with him - skating him around and letting him shoot. Then one of Jonny's teammates took HIM out (he's tiny for hockey so it was like he was the child in this scenario). Just awesome. 5) Actually the best thing I've ever seen came from the KHL All Star game from this year. Some crazy player lit the puck on fire somehow and then used his hockey stick as a javelin to throw the flaming puck into the net. The goalie basically saw it coming and noped right out, as one should when a flaming puck on a hockey stick comes flying your way.
Anyone else have fave moments?
the thing is, other countries are competing for olympic qualification right now, which is where injuries are happening that cause players to drop out of the world cup. the other injuries are from playoffs, which for players like hertl only ended two and a half months ago (not to mention the players who needed surgery in the off season).
it's less about the timing of the injury than it is the timing of the tournament. it overlaps with the preseason and for players coming back from injury, it's riskier to play in something like the world cup than to ease back into camp with your own training staff and basically test the waters.
the other thing is that it's an nhl-exclusive tournament. it's not team canada, as in the best players from canada, it's team canada as in the best nhlers from canada. which is different than say, the olympics, where more countries are represented and rosters are comprised of players from various leagues. that's why we have "team europe," because there aren't enough nhlers from one single nation to roster a team (after finland, czech republic, and sweden), even though there are nations with national leagues that compete in the olympics.
so it lessens the prestige a bit because it's not about being the best in the world, it's about being the best in the nhl...which is also what the competition for the stanley cup is, just with more varied teams.
it's a money grab for the nhl, but it should be fun, at least.
Yeah, I agree that the WCOH is a cash grab for the NHL, but I can also understand their point of view re: wanting a tournament that can replace the Olympics so they don't have to send their players.
The NHL has to pause their season, right in the middle of it, for three weeks, during which they don't get any revenue from their players playing in the Olympics, they don't get control over who tends to the injuries of their players during the tournament and there's conflict with the IOC over who will pay travel and insurance costs for the NHL players who participate in the Olympics, since the IOC has said they do not want to any longer.
Sure, the NHL pauses the season for the All Star Game, but not for as long, and they get all the revenue generated from it; it's a showcase of their teams and their best players and their league. Other leagues (the NBA, for example, since their season is played during the winter while Olympic basketball is an event at the summer games) don't have to pause their seasons so that their players can participate in the Olympics. They get to show off on an international level without losing revenue during their season. (Although, I suspect that there will be this same sort of discussion about baseball as the Tokyo Olympics draw near, because the MLB would also have to pause its season if they chose to allow their players to play. The circumstances are a little different, and here's probably not the place to discuss them though. XD)
So I definitely agree that it's the NHL wanting money, and I want NHL players to play in the Olympics, because Olympic hockey is tons of fun to watch, but I can understand why the NHL would rather have a tournament they have control over. I hope some sort of compromise can be reached by 2018.
Is anyone watching the pre-tournament games? I wasn't been able to watch the Sweden-Finland, but did the NA-Europe and USA-CA ones. Team NA is fast, dynamic and inexperienced - that's my impression. I think they could be scary, but I also think another team could take advantage of the lack of experience (I mean, Austen Matthews has never played an NHL game but is up against veterans of 10 years of NHL play - wow).
The USA-CA game was frankly all the things I DIDN'T want to see for the World Cup - multiple injuries from rough plays. I don't like the USA's physical style at all, although I guess only the Kesler hit on Weber is considered "dirty" by the rules. Apparently all the players returned to the games, which good, although I'll be honest and say I don't think Couture should have. His head went in the boards and that should have meant a trip to the quiet room for the rest of the game. And now blood is in the water and tonight's game will probably be even more chippy. Ack!
What did the rest of you think?
I only watched NA-Europe and USA-Can too, and I have similar feelings myself. NA was fun to watch, I thought, though I definitely agree another team could probably capitalize on their inexperience. I'm not sure they'd fare as well against Canada, for example.
I have mixed feelings about the USA-Can game too. On the one hand, I've been cheering for USA, so I'm glad they won, but yeah--some of those hits were pretty borderline. Kesler absolutely shouldn't've hit Weber in the way that he did. Some of the tangle-ups I didn't think were on purpose (the one with Giroux, for example) but I definitely would prefer USA have more control over their physicality.
On the plus side: how about Kane's goal? So impressive! I've watched it multiple times and I'm still not sure how he managed to get it in the net.
Did you see the NA team now has McDavid and Eichel on a line together (or did at practice anyway)? That could be pretty interesting! I agree against a team like Canada, who are very precise and controlled, I think the NA team would fare worse - but then again, I think they are faster than Canada and some of it comes down to puck control. Although that didn't help Canada against the US - they controlled the puck most of the time and still lost.
Kesler's hit could have been really dangerous if Weber hadn't known he was coming right at him and braced himself - that's why it's illegal and Kesler got a game misconduct. Oshie's hit on Couture wasn't illegal per se, since it was from the side, but that was the more dangerous hit in a sense because Couture didn't expect him and wasn't prepared. I definitely agree that Giroux's injury wasn't on purpose and was just bad luck basically. Seguin as well - he came in really fast and just tangled up with the US player (can't remember who it was). I'm definitely concerned if that level of dangerous play continues tonight!
Kaner's goal was great - it came from sticking with the puck basically. He shot at the net and Price deflected it, but Kane was right there to get the deflection and (because he's a lefthanded shooter) was able to lift the puck up between Price's leg pads and the side of the net in a really tiny opening. Price probably should have had it, and later in the game when Kane tried it again he did stop it - but it was still a brilliant play by Kane to get that goal.
I liked Parise's goal a lot too - the one that started the scoring. Lots of traffic in front of the net makes it less pretty maybe, but it's the same idea of sticking with the puck and creating something. Although really that was a Suter goal that Parise tipped in - they play well together, although given they've played together for years that's not a shock. ;)
Did you know the Marchand-Crosby-Bergeron line had 14 of the 40 shots on goal by the Canadians? That's amazing, and why that line got both goals - they shot, they went to the net, they did everything they could to pester the US team. Quick managed to block most of their shots (with some help from the forwards), but that line is super-dangerous.
I'm not going to be at all shocked it the score is reversed tonight, tbh. Price was rusty last night but Holtby&Crow won't be. And if Canada retains most of the possession and SOG, I'm not sure the US will be able to get enough goals past them. I guess we'll see.
Does everyone know that in the US the game will only be streamed tonight? It will be at: http://www.espn.com/watchespn/
Well, I guess one thing I can say about this game, after the first period at least, is that USA needs to play more disciplined, and that they need to stop with the penalties.
Gah - 3 of the 5 goals were PP goals! So yeah, definitely agree - more discipline to stop taking penalties. I mean, Torts has Kane there for offense - and he can't do a thing when he's sitting out because there's yet another powerplay... And you can't without scoring. I mean, Canada was multiplying their penalties too, though, toward the middle of the game. It's just the US didn't capitalize as well I guess.
Do you think the refs were super-quick to call things last night? I kind of felt like they didn't want the same number of almost serious injuries as there were on Fri and so were calling things quicker to try and stop things from getting out of hand. That may not be an accurate perception though!
No, I got the same impression! It seemed to me that the refs wanted to make sure they had control over the game. That's probably where USA's physicality got them into trouble; they were reckless in the first game, so the refs were less likely to let things slide in the second.
But you're right; Kane's there for his scoring, but he can't be any help if he's on the bench because the USA has to kill tons of penalties. And they need to capitalize on the penalties that Canada takes too. Hopefully they'll do better against Finland.
I think a lot of people were worried about the first game, and the refs had the ability to kind of put a lid on it, so to speak, by calling everything quickly - so that's what they did. It will be interesting to see if that continues, and what changes the US team will make to their style. But yeah - if they did better at getting PP goals then that would help...
Today is the NA Team against Europe again - I'm excited to watch and see what adjustments were made between the 2 teams. I really feel like NA is the most exciting of the teams and enjoyed what I saw of the first game quite a bit. :)
I'll be interested to see what sort of changes they make before the next game. Hopefully they tighten their play some.
On the plus side, Team North America is definitely fun to watch! I missed the first period and it seems like I missed out on lots of scoring, but I'm still really enjoying how fast they are. There are points where it looks like they aren't quite there in terms of defense, and it seems to be coming back to bite them now because Team Europe is looking better than they did last game.
Honestly I think when Team Europe were down 5-1 in the first, they were just embarrassed into scoring. I agree that defense is what they exploited on the NA team to score - the NA players are quick enough to recover from mistakes for the most part, but Europe definitely capitalized on some of their issues. Actually, in the 3rd when they were only down 5-4 and had momentum, I thought they might pull it out and tie it up - until the refs called that REALLY soft penalty on Europe and Team NA got a PP goal. That basically determined the game right there. I'm not sure how I feel about that. I mean, I think all the penalties in the US-CA game were to make sure it didn't get dangerous like the first one, but to see another game also determined by the refs calling a soft penalty... I'm not sure. That also could have repercussions.
Yeah, I'm certainly interested in seeing how Team NA plays against a team like USA or CA. Someone (I think Gaudreau?) was asked what they thought about facing the physicality of the USA-CA game and replied that you can't hit what you can't catch, but I can't help but feel like it won't be that simple!
I did notice that re: the refs, and I feel like that's a thing that people brought up as being a problem more often last season than in the past? But maybe I just hadn't been playing close enough attention to notice before. But either way, it can really change the momentum of a game.
I wouldn't be surprised if Gaudreau said that - that's the style of small fast players already, so I could easily see it for a team that fast in general. I think the problem is not that they can or cannot take the hits, just do they have the mental discipline that comes with experience. They play the Czech's tonight, so we'll see how they do against a different team than Europe.
I'm super-excited for the Canadian-Russian match tonight actually! That could be an exciting preview of a likely tournament matchup I think.
I wasn't able to watch the Finn-USA game last night so I don't know how the reffing was - what was your opinion? Were they still calling everything or had they backed off?
I was unfortunately out last night and didn't get a chance to see the Czech-NA game or the Rus-Can game, although I heard that the latter especially was very entertaining!
As for the Finn-US game (which, luckily, I did get to see!) my first impression was that USA played a much tighter game, at least in the first two periods. I remember thinking that the penalty on the US toward the end of the second period was kind of soft, and it left them starting off the third period on the penalty kill. It was kind of a momentum shift too, I think, because they were sloppier in the third, and that's when they started taking more penalties. I think after that, the refs weren't letting them get away with anything, and USA was lucky that the penalty they took in the last two minutes of the game didn't cost them.
I also remember being pretty impressed by Laine! Super fast, and he had a real nice goal against Quick. I think the Jets got a great player in him.
It's interesting because in both games it (and the first US-CA one) it feels like the goalies are making all the differences. The shot differential for NA-Czech was 44 to 29, but first period was 32-16 - so team NA came out firing but then slowed down and got mired in all the hits the Czech team was throwing. Also - they didn't capitalize on 6 of their 7 PPs, while the Czechs got a goal for 1 in 3. I somewhat expect NA's PP units to change after that. But it also raises the question of physicality - both CA and NA like the faster skilled games, while USA and Czech and maybe others went for a more physical team. I think the NHL is moving toward the skills game in general, but it will be interesting to see in a short tournament if one works better than the other.
As for the CA-RUS game... Bobrovski stood on his head basically and kept out 48 (!) shots by the CA, while Price only had to contend with 26. Everything else was relatively even (and apparently neither team has found the magic formula for PP goals). Ultimately the old adage you can't score if you don't shoot held true here - CA simply had more shots, which meant more opportunities to get a goal through and they eventually did get that 1 more in OT to win. Given the caliber of the players and their offensive capabilities, I'm honestly a little shocked the score wasn't higher - but that goes back to my previous thought that this feels like it's shaping up to be a goalie tournament.
I'm watching the USA-Europe game, and yikes. Europe looked much better than them in the first period, and I think that the only reason the score is 0-1 right now is because Quick has made some amazing saves. During the intermission report, they were talking about how the US has given up too many 2 on 1 chances to Europe, and yeah, I can agree with that. They need to play a much tighter game (I feel like this has been a thing I've said a lot about USA XD)
Man, I don't know what Torts is doing. First, he played Kane less than 5 min that period - and what the US needs is offense. Second, he built this team on physicality and defensive offensive plays and they are doing neither right now. I'm just so confused by what Torts is thinking.
That's not to take away from Europe though - that Gaborik goal was beautiful. And they are playing very well.
Whoever loses this game HAS to beat Canada to get past this round, so, uh, this is kind of an important game to win... (assuming Canada does as well as expected, which I think is a good assumption).
I wish I knew what he was thinking too. What even is the point of having Kane around if you aren't actually going to play him? He almost created a great chance a few minutes ago! Honestly, I was kind of skepitcal of the decisions that went into building Team USA in the first place, but now that they have built the team based on physicality and defensive offensive plays why would you not play to those strengths?
You're right though! Europe's playing well, and much better than USA, but Torts isn't helping matters, I think.
I was going to say at least they capitalized on this power play, but it looks like they are going to review it? ETA: yeah, nevermind; no goal.
Somewhere Andrew Shaw was cheering JVR's goal though, even if it did get taken away...
I have no words for how that game went, well, other than painful (for US fans, I'm sure Team Europe fans were thrilled). I also was skeptical of Team USA being built entirely with Canada in mind, because that's only 1 team out of several - and they only won 1 of those 2 games in the pre-tournament anyway, so it's fail either way. But to then not even play them the way they were intended, scratching Big Buff and trying to play a more skills game than physical... Kane had an awful turnover for Europe's 2nd goal, but he had a bunch of scoring chances when he was on the ice - but ended up only playing basically 3rd line minutes... And Torts changed up all the lines, so suddenly people were playing with players they didn't know well so there wasn't much chemistry and...
I don't even know what Torts is thinking, honestly I don't. Other than that he likes to create a mountain to climb and make things harder for everyone. One of the sports writers tweeted that Torts can lose a room/bench quicker than any coach in the NHL, and that's kind of how I was feeling as I watched - that the players had lost faith in his system and didn't have any fallback.
But I give it up for Team Europe - they did very well and pushed the pace of the game/kept good possession, etc. And Halak did amazing! So they deserve the win just as much as torts/USA deserve the loss.
It was just... Such a mess. Kane did have an awful turnover, true, but he also had some nice passes that his linemates couldn't capitalize on. And the defense? It was like they forgot how to play hockey at points. So frustrating to watch.
I can't wrap my mind around whatever it was Torts was thinking either.. I don't understand why he scratched Buff, I don't understand why he changed the lines like that. But I did see that tweet, about Torts losing the room, and I got the same feeling. The players just didn't buy into his system after awhile. Something needs to change, but they certainly don't have much time to waste figuring it out.
I also saw a tweet that said Team USA was hurt the most by the creation of Team North America, because they lost players like Gaudreau, Saad, and Eichel as a result. On the one hand, I agree with that, but on the other... Well, let's just say that, considering the way USA Hockey talked about creating a physical, gritty team, part of me isn't sure that they would've taken those players along if they had the option. But I'm of the opinion that if Team USA wants to be successful, they need to shift focus from "grit" to skilled, speedy players.
Team Europe did deserve the win though! Halak was amazing, and Team Europe controlled the play and were able to capitalize on USA's mistakes.
Yeah I agree with pretty much everything you said - I think given the composition (and intent behind those choices) of the team would have meant several of those NA players wouldn't have been invited anyway. I mean, come on, they didn't invite KESSEL!? Clearly they were not building a speedy skills team, which is what NA players tend to be.
Yeah, the defensive was a hot mess tonight and Tort's "system" seems to be throw lines together and see what happens - which can be ok over a long season (I guess) but is foolhardy for a short tournament. I just... If he hasn't lost the room, he's at the very least lost me. Which I'm sure will keep him up at night. ;)
I really hope the 2018 Olympic USA people are watching this and learning. It's still not clear if the NHL send players (or sanction those who choose to go no matter what, like Ovie intends to), but if they do I'm hoping the US team goes for the skill players and not whatever this current team was supposed to be.
On a different note - while I think Canada's 1st goal should have been disallowed due to goalie interference, that 3rd one where Crosby jumped to get out of the way of a Bergeron goal was a thing of beauty. THAT is how hockey should be played! And that Marcharand-Crosby-Bergeron line is amazing.
In hindsight, I guess Kessel probably wouldn't have come because of his injury, but it makes no sense that he wasn't invited in the first place. But I agree; I hope that whoever is going to be building Team USA in the future is watching this. (I also hope that they choose a different coach. Torts has definitely lost me too. :P)
I missed Canada's first goal because I forgot that they were playing at 8 and then had to go flipping through to find the proper channel, but Marchand-Crosby-Bergeron has looked amazing. I've heard that some players have trouble keeping up with Crosby, but Marchand and Bergeron seem great with him. The team as a whole looks so much better than USA did.
As an aside
mostly because I just want to whine a bitI thought I had been doing well at curating my tumblr, and yet there were still people cheering Halak's cheap shot at Kaner in the third period on my dash. Sometimes I wonder if they ever stop and think about what, exactly, they are saying. :/Oh for sure, Kessel would still be out - but the decision not to invite him set the tone for what style the US team would play - rough and tumble hockey. Except that's NOT how Torts played them this last game, plus he changed up the lines, which left the team rudderless because they had no chemistry and no sense of what their game approach should be. I'm just so over Torts.
Someone I know suggested that this whole thing was basically a gift to the Canadian hockey establishment as a way to re-ignite hockey fever in a country where their NHL teams have not gone far in the playoffs for years. And that the decision to create Team NA intentionally hurt the US team, taking away a lot of the fast skilled players. So the US Team basically said screw it, and brought in Torts as coach and built a team around a 50's philosophy of hitting and went off to do something more important. That's a very interesting idea I think, given the World Cup used to be called the Canadian Cup and was designed to showcase Canadian players.
I think elite players can be difficult to "match" stylistically, so it really can be hard to find someone with chemistry who gives the right amount of support but isn't completely overshadowed. Marchie and Bergy seem to have that with Crosby and it's really beautiful hockey to watch.
Yeah, tumblr is... a place where some people don't really care about facts, and even if they accept the fact that Kane was completely innocent from last fall bring up things he did years ago as reason to hate him (some of which also aren't true - like the whole Madison thing where he was a drunk idiot but a thorough investigation by the Trib showed everything else Deadspin reported was false; and it was his cousin who punched the cabbie not him according to later Buffalo News articles). I mean, he DID make mistakes, don't get me wrong! He's very far from perfect. But I just detest how on tumblr apparently people can't learn or change or anything, but must be hated forever for something they did at 18. And tumblr folk who yell that he's a horrible, violent person and then celebrate when someone tries to hurt him are hypocrites who don't realize just how hypocritical they are being. Or maybe too young? I hate to attribute age and wisdom because there are many 15 year olds wiser than 40 year olds, but it's true that life experience has a way of teaching people that life is much more nuanced than many tumblr folk seem to allow. I advise liberal use of the block or mute button to make tumblr a better experience if you choose to go there.
I'm still completely baffled by the decisions that Torts made. I think you're right that not selecting Kessel in the first place set the tone for the kind of hockey they wanted to play, so the fact that they didn't play that way during the actual game is just mindboggling. And today, I saw that Torts had Kane on a line with Stepan and Abdelkader and I'm just... Why don't you keep Kane with Pavelski, since they seemed decent together before? I'm so over him too.
Huh, that hadn't occurred to me. I don't know that we'd ever know whether or not that's true for sure, since it's not something anyone would ever admit. I'm always hesitent to believe something like that without any proof because it seems like the sort of thing that can easily cross over into conspiracy theory territory, but it's true that Canadian NHL teams have not performed well lately.
Yes, I've heard that! I've also heard people say that Crosby sees the game differently than a lot of other players do and that sometimes that's hard for other players to overcome. I really only ever follow the Penguins when they play the Devils or Blackhawks, so I don't really know what his linemate situation is in Pittsburgh, but I think I could see something like that being an issue.
:/ I'm usually pretty ruthless about blocking and unfollowing that sort of thing, but I guess I missed some people. I remember the same kind of response when Kane was hit by Dumba last season, and it was just as hypocritical then. I find that part of tumblr hockey fandom to be very frustrating, and not only because I think the discourse misses out on a lot of nuance. (I have a lot of feelings about tumblr hockey fandom that, given the vitriol, I think I am more comfortable discussing in private, heh.) But I agree with everything you've said, and I think some of it transcends hockey fandom into just being part of Tumblr culture. I've noticed tons of call out posts that dredge up things that a person did when they were teenagers and that don't give a person the benefit of the doubt when it comes to, you know, growing up. And I mean, I'm 25; I am young and I hate to call this a young person thing, but that sort of black and white thinking does seem to skew young.
Speaking of young, though! I'm watching NA-Finland, and holy moly is it exciting! I love the speed. Still not sure how well they'll do against a team like Canada, but they've been skating circles around Finland. The only reason the game is 3-0 is because of Rinne.
There was a headline that described the USA loss as coming down to "baffling" coaching decisions, and that pretty much sums it up for me. I didn't like Team USA's style in the first game, but they played the way they were designed to play and did relatively well (in the sense they won, not in the sense that their possession numbers were very good). So I'm not sure why Torts is trying to "fix" how they play given they played exactly how the team was built to play. And these new lines... Oy vey!
That suggestion that the Wold Cup was designed to excite Canadian hockey fans is definitely on the conspiracy theory spectrum for sure - that doesn't mean it may not be true, but without evidence for it I wouldn't necessarily believe it likely either. It's more an interesting idea to think about for me anyway - but that may purely be my jealousy of Canadian dominance in hockey. ;)
It's interesting about the whole concept of "vision" - I've heard that about both Kane and Crosby. That they know the game well enough that they can make predictions based on how the play is moving and thus are able to position themselves to have the best possible play. The problem is - to do that they have to assume that their linemates are also positioning themselves for that as well - so if they are matched up with a player with lesser "vision" or skill level, then it can become a series of near misses rather than magical plays. I also think it comes down to compatibility/style as well - do they need lineys who defer to them or do they need equals, etc. For example, the Pens played Crosby and Kessel on a line together for a while and it just did not gel at all despite both being awesome, but once Kessel was put with Hagelin and Bonino it was pure magic. In the playoffs, Crosby was with Sheary and Hornquist and I think they did pretty well. In the past, he's played with Kunitz which has always interested me because Kunitz on his own isn't amazing, but with Crosby they had a chemistry that was really good. With Kane, you have a guy who had a carousel of linemates for years and managed to still elevate them up to being a decent line (he may have dragged Hadzus kicking and screaming all over the ice to score goals, but it happened), but it's when he plays with Toews or Panarin that you see how great he can be with actual skilled linemates. So I definitely think that all of that shows that even great players need a proper support system to shine, and it's not necessarily by putting them with other elites - it's kind of like match making lines I guess.
Tumblr exists in a world of extremes where even nuances are decried as bad. It can be fun for gifs and if you are ruthless in making sure your experience is the best possible for you it works, but I would absolutely recommend my kids stay away from it because it is not a "safe" place since anger seems to simmer under the surface constantly and even a whisper that someone may possibly have made a mistake once makes them "problematic".
Man, yeah, that Team NA was magical - there was one play McDavid had while I watched where he went through 2 defenders and managed to steal the puck and almost get one past Rinne was absolutely amazing. Eichel and Mattews are also playing super-well, which is a wow for Matthews given he's never even played an NHL game. I definitely am interested to see how they play against Russia today - both teams played yesterday, so will tired legs doom the older Russians or will Team NA's inexperience and mistakes allow Russia to capitalize? And just why isn't Russia scoring about 10 goals/game given their offensive lineup????
These new lines look awful. I didn't like their style when they played Canada either, but that's how the team is built, so I don't understand why Torts would have them play a style that they really aren't capable of being successful at. I don't really have much faith in USA beating Canada on Tuesday, and that makes me sad. Also I'm scrolling through Twitter and seeing this tweet and just... Why.
Oh believe me, I am super jealous of Canada! And to be honest, also a little sick of them winning gold. They're the favorite and all, but I would like to see someone else win, even if it's probably not going to be USA.
That's definitely a good point. I'm consistently impressed by the way that Kane seems to be able to elevate the play of his linemates, but when he plays with Panarin or Toews it's magical. Like I said, I don't really follow the Penguins during the regular season, so I can't say much on Sid and Kessel together, but I do remember everyone expecting them to be amazing together and then loudly wondering why they weren't (alongside loudly wondering what was wrong with Crosby). I guess also there has to be a balance between playing around with the lines to see what clicks and leaving them together long enough to get used to each other to build chemistry. So switching things up when it's obvious players aren't working well together is one thing versus whatever the hell Tortorella is doing.
Hah, yeah, Tumblr definitely isn't a "safe" space (no matter how some people try to, say, censor fanfic writers in the name of safe spaces!) And it's frustrating because it's not like I disagree with the overall points that a lot of people make; I absolutely think rape culture, for example is a problem, but I don't see how having a discussion about it without nuance helps anyone. I don't really think that Tumblr's format lends itself to that sort of discussion either. Things get reblogged and go viral and you don't have a chance to clarify or defend yourself because you can't make edits that everyone will see. It just turns into an angry echochamber.
I'm really looking forward to the NA-Russia game! I wonder if Russia's goal scorers will be able to capitalize on NA's inexperience, but it does seem like they're more likely to suffer from tired legs. I wouldn't count any team with players like Ovi and Malkin out though. I think it's going to be tons of fun to watch, even though I am wishing so badly that Gaudreau and Eichel and Larkin, etc, were playing for USA right now!
Wow, Russia found their scoring touch and took down Team NA. I wasn't able to see much, so I can't really comment on anything other than the 1st period and that looked pretty good for Team NA. Apparently there was some sort of major defensive breakdown in the 2nd - 4 goals in 6 min! That's been the question with NA all along - do they have the defensive experience to be able to keep a fast team like Russian slowed down and off their speedy offensive game. The BIG problem for Team NA now is they play Sweden next and I'm personally betting Sweden will be in the Final with Canada - they are just that good. And Team NA has to win against them to be through for sure (there are ways it could still happen, but it would be difficult similar to how USA has to beat Canada tonight for a shot at moving on, and, well... Torts is torting).
I honestly think Sweden could give Canada a run for the gold, so that could be interesting to watch. I don't think any of the other teams are as well balanced to make it likely - but hey! The thing about these short tournaments is anything is possible.
I think with really good players, they have a desire to have the puck - so a line with Kessel and Crosby might have issues because neither wants to defer to the other. I didn't follow it closely, tbh, but I know they were on a line and it just didn't gel, but when they were on the lines they used in the playoffs they both played great. What you have with Panarin and Kane is a slightly different setup though, because rather than having 2 supportive players for the ultra-high skill guy, they have one very stable, solid center that allows the other two players to fly around and make decisions on the spot about what to do - that Kane-Anisimov-Panarin line only works with Anisimov standing in front of the net blocking sight lines and allowing Kane or Panarin the freedom to be creative.
Oh, I hear you on the frustration level - I am 100% supportive of the basic concepts that the tumblr social justice people are espousing and have been all my life. It's just HOW they go about it actually makes things worse some of the time. And the lack of willingness to actively listen and hear what people are saying, unless it's complete agreement, is a major issue. The tumblr format creates an echo chamber effect that reinforces people's self-righteousness and makes them feel vindicated in attacking those who differ even a little, and that's just not at all a way to actually achieve the social change that is so desperately needed. The call out culture/culture of outrage has a tendency to turn on its own eventually, while driving away others, and ultimately all it achieves is shambles and upset people who would have otherwise have been helpful.
And to end where you began - when asked what he's thinking Torts just says he isn't. And there you have it. To be fair, he may well have very good reasons that he just doesn't feel like sharing with the class. That said, whatever his reasoning was in the last game - it didn't work clearly. And with Europe beating the Czechs, the only way on to the next round is if the US beats Canada tonight and even then it's a narrow window. They did beat CAN once - by playing the physical game the team was designed to play. So I guess we'll see how Torts opts to play them tonight... I... don't have a whole lot of hope for a win tbh, so my main hope is no one gets seriously hurt. Poor Segs is out for 6+ weeks with a fracture of his heel and Ekblad has a "mild" concussion (there is no such thing, sorry). Faska is out for who knows what and Murray has a jammed thumb (although he says it didn't impact the 4 goals the Russians got against him). If the US plays physical tonight, I'm worried about who will get damaged! :(
Yeah, I watched the game (it was a lot of fun!) and that's exactly what happened in the second period. There was a defensive breakdown by team NA, and Russia capilatized it. NA was playing better by the end of the period and throughout the third, but Bobrovski was standing on his head so they were never able to catch up. The last 20 seconds of the third featured some amazing hockey though. NA was so close to sending it to OT! I was sad they couldn't tie it in the end, and not only because I wanted NA to win. 3 on 3 OT between those two teams would've been so exciting.
But yeah, agreed; I wouldn't be surprised to see Sweden vs Canada in the final. They definitely seem like one of the most balanced teams, and while I know Lundqvist didn't play in the first game, he's certainly an amazing goalie to have on your team.
Definitely, Anisimov is a great steady presence for Kane and Panarin. I think also the fact that Kane and Panarin both having the room to be creative forced opposing teams' D to work extra hard. They can't just focus on shutting down Kane, because Panarin is just as dangerous, and he and Panarin both have such excellent vision and work so well together that they can make things happen where other players might not be able to. Anisimov at the net creating space for them give them the opportunity to take risks. I remember thinking last season that I would have loved to see Panarin-Toews-Kane more often, but some of that was definitely because I enjoy seeing Toews and Kane play together.
Agreed completely! I also find that I'm extremely uncomfortable with the way that people seem to expect others to disclose past trauma as part of the discourse. No one owes you an explanation or a description of their past just because they disagree with you on something! That, coupled with the unwillingness to listen to people who disagree with you, means that nothing is ever actually accomplished. Also I cringe every time I see people reblogging things without double checking the source first.
At this point, yeah, my main hope is that no one else gets banged up. It looks like Ekblad's headed back to Florida to see the team doctors. Hopefully they take his concussion seriously instead of using terms like "mild" as justification for rushing him back. As much as I want to see Schneider play, part of me is glad that he's scratched tonight because I would rather he be healthy for the Devils. And if USA goes home early, Hynes, Palmieri and Schneider will be able to focus on the Devils. On the other hand, in the gifs I've been seeing of Kane today, he looks so sad and tired that I feel like he knows just as well as we do that they probably won't be successful and that bums me out. Maybe I'm projecting my own feelings onto him, but he knows the game so well that I can't imagine he isn't aware of how questionable all of the decisions USA Hockey have made are.
I saw a Reddit post recently that linked to comments Kane made about Gaudreau, something along the lines of "he can do things that I can't" and someone in the thread responded: "yeah, like play for the under 23 team!" That made me laugh, but also saddened me a little, because man the style of hockey they play would suit him much better and he would probably do much better playing with, say, Eichel and Gaudreau instead of Stepan and Abdelkader.
Hmmm, I think if NA had tied it, they might still have lost because the articles I read said that those 4 goals came when their defense failed to hem in the speedy Russians - which makes me think a 3 on 3 would have had the same problem with too much open ice for the Russians to fly around on. Who knows though - it certainly would have been exciting!
So SWE beat FIN today, 2-0, but it actually was much tighter than expected (by me) - with that 2nd goal an empty netter. So, hmmm, interesting - maybe SWE doesn't have as good offense as they have defense?
I love seeing Kane&Toews on the same line too, mostly because they are so in sync and make beautiful plays, but I almost think Anisimov is actually better because he's not trying to make plays like Toews would, he simply acts as the axis around which Kane and Panarin spin. And I think that works better than having 3 guys who all want the puck.
Oh man, the victim/oppression Olympics sucks - the idea that no one can have an opinion or are allowed feelings unless they can show they were just as victimized or oppressed as people arguing the opposition POV. It literally creates an environment where not only do people not listen to what others are saying, but are actively denying them a voice because they have not experienced "enough pain". What is enough? How badly do I have to be treated as a female or how much of my history of abuse do I have to reveal to have a voice? It's just an awful atmosphere to create because it invalidates people right and left and allows people to feel they have the right to do so because those people don't have the "cred" to have an opinion/feeling that deserves listening to.
Yeah, Eckblad is back in TB and hopefully under careful observation. And if USA flames out tonight, then they will all be back safely attending training camps too. I'm at a loss for why Schneider is scratched, tbh - he hasn't really had a chance to show his stuff, but I'd put him up there with Quick any day. The Devils, for all their issues, never had weak goaltending as their problem.
Yeah the video of Kane talking about Team USA and how they were going to play tonight was very sad-making because it seems clear he isn't holding out a lot of hope - and knows as their offensive go to guy he'll likely be blamed. Sigh. Although I really do think any sane person would look at the way the team was built and how Torts has played them and point fingers in those directions rather than the 1 guy they put on the team to score, when really it's the whole team that has to work for scoring to happen. If defense is too focused on hitting to keep possession, there's no real way to score...
Man, Kane's style is an exact fit for Team NA and it would have been awesome if he could be on their team. Or if there was no Team NA and instead Team USA was built for speed and skill like Team NA. It's frustrating that his style is so different than team USA's style and would fit so well with Team NA's. Sadly there's no Doctor Who around to fiddle with timey wimy stuff and make Kane younger.
OK and now begins the USA-CAN game, and of course Torts' practice lines meant nothing and Kane is with Parise and Stepen...
Heh, there they went, scoring one goal and giving me hope right before taking all that hope away. It's kind of painful to watch; they just don't have the the scorers they need. And now they have lost their time out, I think. :/
Anyway, yes that's true; I could see that as posing a problem for NA, but all of that speed would have been tons of fun to watch. If I'm remembering correctly, Datsyuk was at the center of at least some of the problems for NA, so I think the lack of experience was definitely something that hurt NA.
I missed the Swe-Fin game, but I do remember hearing the announcers talk about Sweden as having one of the best defenses in the tournament, so maybe you're right about that!
With the way this is going, I wish Schneider or Bishop were in net. Schneider, I think, does a lot with way less scoring than Quick gets. Honestly, if you have a team who won't be scoring much, there are few goalies I would trust more than Schneider in net.
The announcers just said the hopes of USA rest on Kane's shoulders, and I just... The decision making that went into building this team did not play to Kane's strengths and he hasn't really been put in a position to succeed. The pressure on him is extremely unfair. I know he puts just as much pressure on himself as everyone else does, but Kane can't do everything on his own. He tries - last season, for example, there were times when he dragged the Hawks kicking and screaming to a win - but you have to give him players who can help him out a little. I just feel so bitter about this, haha. I feel like I took it for granted that USA would move on, but I don't think they're going to do so anymore.
At least if they are allowed to go to the Olympics, he will potentially be able to play with some of those NA players. Maybe getting embarrassed the way they are will force a change, since obviously their current philosophy of #grit is not something that will work in the game as it is now.
Re oppression Olympics: I definitely agree with all of that. It's frustrating because they say one thing - they talk about making safe places and being supportive, but then they refuse to listen and they make people recount potentially traumatic experiences before they're willing to engage, and all it really does is hurt and alienate people who would otherwise be on your side.
ETA: lol it was just as bad as I thought it would be, and Kane clearly blames himself for not playing as well as he knows he could've. But man, nothing was going right for them, and USA's failures aren't all on him, even if the media is blaming him for not scoring. There are other players on that team, after all. I hope at least this forces some sort of front office change for USA Hockey. :/
Well... The USA-CAN game was painful, if only for that moment of hope when they got the 1st goal - and then CAN responded with a flurry of goals and that was that. The team just wasn't built for skill even if it maybe had the grit/heart that Lombardi loves - but I'm not even going far with that. I mean, did you see Lombardi slam Kessel about his tweet? Saying that he'd still take all these "heart" guys over Kessel's skill any day and I'm like... So then you'll lose any day too. PLUS - I think Pens fans would disagree with saying Kessel has no heart/grit. Who says skill means no heart/grit anyway? It's clear as glass that Kane laid his heart out for the team in that game and was in tears by the end, but he's not, by Lombardi logic , a heart player. Just a Hart player...
I think Lombardi was smarting because, unlike what clickbait reporters would have people believe, what Kessel tweeted was not a slam on USA players but a slam on the way the team was built by Lombardi. So Phil dissed him and he dissed back.
I know there's been a few comments on Kane not putting up enough offense, but by and large blame seems to be falling squarely on those most deserving - Lombardi and Torts who both were involved in team selection and how they were played. Maybe it will lead to a change, we'll see. There's a whole lot of US players that have never had success in international tournaments because of poor decision making by the selection committee.
I would LOVE it if in the Olympics the USA team had a bunch of those NA players - Austin Matthews had an amazing game against Sweden, as did Jonny Hockey. And Saad is always good. So while I don't think Lombardi learned a thing, I think/hope other people involved with team USA did and will pick a different GM for that! I hear Stan Bowman has dual citizenship...
The NA-SWE game was phenomenal! I just wish NA had won in regulation, because now they need Russia to lose to Finland to get into the next round and that seems... unlikely. Who knows of course! Or rather, we will later today I guess.
I can't believe Team USA still has another game to play. It just seems cruel, both the Czechs and USA teams are out - just let them go out to a movie together and hang for a while without any pressure or body checks.
Re: oppression Olympics and alienating people - exactly. It's not a safe space if people are forced to recount their own traumatic experience in order to be allowed a seat at the table. Some people are fine with telling their story, but others are not and forcing them to in order to allow them a voice creates so much more pain. And that's not even taking into account the fact that there are people who do not have the shared trauma but still can have valid thoughts on the topic who are entirely shut out of the conversation. How many good ideas have been lost over the years in so many fields because people with different backgrounds/histories were deemed unacceptable and thus weren't allowed a voice?
I'm still pretty bummed about the loss, and I'm super annoyed by the way that Lombardi and Torts are doubling down on their decision making in the wake of all the criticsm. They wouldn't do anything different? Well, then USA is going to keep losing. And yeah, I find I kind of resent the implication that only "gritty" players (who, let's be honest, didn't even seem to be that gritty during these games) have any heart. Kessel cares enough to play though injury, even if that's not necessarily a good thing, and Kane loves hockey more than anything else. To say that skilled players like them don't have heart is cruel, I think. Part of the reason that Lombardi and co are so defensive is probably that Kessel's criticism has merit and they know it. But admitting that would also mean admitting that they made bad decisions going into this tournament, and they don't seem willing to do that.
I think for Kane part of the problem is that he was trying to do as much as he could with no space and no support. But USA didn't have a line like Panarin-Anisimov-Kane, with someone who could create space for creative players, and someone who could help draw defensemen away from Kane while also being skilled enough to anticipate Kane's passes. And they didn't have skilled enough defensemen to help facilitate puck movement or who could help to shut down other teams' players.
I do also think that his penchant for passing came back to bite him - if he shot more, he might have been able to do more, but other teams were all over him so maybe not. USA just wasn't built in a way that would put him (or the other forwards who have scoring abilities) in a position to succeed. And that's definitely squarely on the shoulders of management. I hope it's different for the Olympics, if they go, but I definitely also hope that someone other than Lombardi is in charge then. Shero's American! I like how he's been rebuilding the Devils so far, so maybe he'd be a decent choice?
The NA-Sweden game was so exciting! The OT, man; it was one of the best I've seen. MacKinnon's goal on Lundqvist was beautiful. I'm also sad that they couldn't get it done in regulation, because it's rough having to rest your fate on Finland's success, and I'm doubtful that they'll be able to beat Russia. But we'll see! I really want to watch NA-Can, so I will live in hope!
It does seem cruel to force USA and the Czechs to play a meaningless game. I'm hoping that everyone can make it through without any last minute injuries, and then they can go home and focus on the regular season, which hopefully will make them feel better. I saw Kane say he was going to speak with Q and Bowman to decide if he should jump right into training camp or if he should take a few days off. I'm sure he wants to start putting this tournament behind him as soon as he can though.
Well, Lombardi and Torts admitting they made mistakes seems unlikely at this point, but with Team USA going 0-3, that's got to put the selection on the hot spot when discussing who to make GM/coach for the Olympics. Hmmm, I honestly have mixed feelings about Shero - I like what he's done with the Devils but wasn't as thrilled with the Pens (when they won back in 2009 (2008?) that was due to the previous GM's moves). Then again, show me a GM who's choices everyone loves. So maybe. Mike Sullivan (Pen's coach) is US citizen too I believe, so he could be an option for coach. He was with Team NA this time, so clearly he's liked.
I definitely think Lombardi felt hurt by Kessel's tweet combined with the universal panning of the roster selection, and was lashing out. I also think, though, that sadly that is something the NHL tends to think anyway - skill and grit/heart are often spoken of as if exclusive of each other. Just like skill and hard work are often spoken of that way. It's not fair frankly - there are a lot of people with varying degrees of skill and heart and hard work and it's a combination. Kane and Crosby often get lumped with the "skill" players who then are not viewed as having heart or working hard, while Toews and Parise are often put in the hard work/heart category - yet I would say the first 2 work incredibly hard and the latter two are both wildly talented. I mean, maybe when you go down the lines and get to enforcer types there is a dichotomy of skill vs grit/heart (don't get me started on my opinion of how the NHL uses up and spits out enforcer types though), but when you're talking upper lines/stars it's a combination of all of that.
Man last night's game was sad - it felt a lot like the bronze medal game in Sochi - a few players showed up but most were already thinking about going home. I think Pavelski, Kane and Parise were the three that seemed to be trying the hardest, but I wasn't able to see the whole game (story of my life - kids' bedtimes are always right during night time games). The passes just weren't connecting because no one had built up any line chemistry since Torts was moving everyone around so much. And there was one BAD play behind the USA net during their own power play that nearly resulted in a shorthanded goal it was so bad. Like - I literally think they didn't see the guy in the red uniform right behind their net with the puck for the longest time. That's when you know players are phoning it in. And those were some of the "heart" players...
Yeah, I think a lot of USA players were passing when they should be shooting, Kane included. He was smothered by defense a lot - but there were several cases where he was open but the other player passed to someone else, so that was frustrating as well. There just seemed no cohesiveness on the team, no understanding of how to play together rather than playing as a bunch of individuals. I think that goes to coaching, but it may well be a chemistry thing in general as well. IDK. It's easy to couch-side coach, not so easy to actually do it.
So Russia won and NA is out. :( I mean, Russia was very good, and who doesn't love Ovi and Panarin, etc but NA was THE most exciting team to watch I'd say, so it's sad. Their team twitter commentary was painful. Sniff.
It's always interesting to me how Kane defers to other people's judgements sometimes. I guess it comes from living the life of a pro athlete where so much is regulated around them. I know when he broke his collarbone and went to Mexico with his gf for a few days he had to get permission, which apparently is standard for pro athletes. I just think that maybe he should decide if he needs a few days break on his own rather than talking to other people about it and having it be a collective decision. But I think his whole life he's deferred to his father and others in authority around him. IDK - it gives me a lot of feelings about age and autonomy and how different pro athlete's lives are from everyone else's, and how tough it is for them post-retirement or even summers where that tight regulation is loosened.
I saw people on Twitter wondering if USA Hockey needed to change at the grassroots level, that is: if they need to change the way that kids are taught hockey, and I have to admit that I felt kind of bemused by that. It's not the kids who are the problem, I think, especially when you have players like Eichel and Gaudreau and Matthews, etc. just coming into the NHL, and our U18 players perform well at the international level. The problem is the people who are making the decisions when it comes to building the men's team. That's what needs to change, and maybe not winning a single game will force people to move with the times.
That is a good point re: Shero! I like to think that he's learned from his mistakes (although I will admit that sometimes I side-eye the way he keeps bringing in all these former Pens, although Hynes, at least, seems to have been a great fit.) And yeah, looks like Sullivan is an American. So are Laviolette and Hynes.
There were points where they completely dominated the Czechs, I thought, but the points where they didn't - yikes. One of the Czechs' goals went in off of Suter. Kane was trying so hard to make something happen; he seemed to be shooting more, but nothing was happening. He and Parise looked okay together, like if they'd had more time they could've built some decent chemistry, but obviously there wasn't any time for that at this point. Byfuglien was also clearly frustrated, and it kind of boiled over at the end when he and a Cezch player dropped the gloves just as the finl buzzer went. On the plus side, Schneider looked pretty good for the period he was in! But he's always so reliable, and I'm mainly glad that he made it through the tournament without any injuries. It would've felt like salt in the wound if he'd gone out for a single period and come away hurt.
I think maybe it was a combination of both of those things? A lot of coaching decisions were completely baffling, as we've discussed already, but it's also true that a lot of players didn't play very well together. I think maybe if Torts had given them time to get used to one another, it might have been better, same as if management had made better decisions regarding who to send in the first place maybe things would be different. I guess I think that a lot of the blame is on coaching and management, but I don't want to absolve the players of all responsibility too.
Yes, it's disappointing that NA got eliminated. Like I said, I was really interested to see how they played against Canada. I'm sure the Rus-Can game will be entertaining and exciting, but I have to admite that I'm not as excited about it as I would have been to watch NA-Can.
I guess I can understand why the Hawks would want a say in that; they've invested millions of dollars in Kane (and in other pro athletes) but I am inclined to agree with you - I wish he could make that decision for himself. And man, I have a lot of mixed feelings about the things we've heard about Kane's family (although obviously I don't know them and can't know what their more private lives are like.) Kane's also someone who seems like he might struggle with not having the structure that hockey provides anymore. He seems to not be drinking anymore, from what I read over the past year, which is good, but I dunno; he strikes me as someone who has dedicated so much of himself to hockey that he doesn't always know what to do with himself without it, not that that's something I could know for sure, of course. And I don't want to insinuate that he doesn't have any other interests. But there do seem to be a lot of players who struggle with not having the structure and routine of their sport, and Kane seems especially to want to be immersed in the game all the time.
I'm not sure what Team USA is teaching on a grassroots level, but as you say Team NA's style of of play doesn't support the idea that they teach for Team USA-like players. Although that said, it's doesn't disprove it either necessarily - Team NA was built for skill/speed and Team USA was built for grit/heart, so neither are necessarily reflective of how kids are being taught hockey just what their GM/coach prefer. The success of Team NA vs Team USA (although neither past the round robin stage), however, may spur change on a grassroots level purely because it may be perceived that working toward speed and skill is considered more successful - which is something that's already starting to be true on the NHL level. You have some holdout (Lombardi's Kings) but the trend is definitely toward small speedy skillsters. Someone like Gaureau would have had a much tougher time getting drafted 10 years ago than he was 5 years ago - BUT he was 4th round, 104th pick and much of that was due to his size. And if you look at the top draft picks from this year you'd be hard pressed to find one under 6'. So even though on the NHL level you're seeing smaller, faster players like Kane and Crosby and Gaudreau, at the draft level you aren't seeing them be selected. So who knows - maybe that does indicate the system is still prone toward heart/grit size. The trend seems more toward small&fast in the NHL but it may take awhile for people to catch up on a managerial level.
Shero seems trying to turn the Devils in the Pens-light or something, but really it's probably about working with people he knows/is comfortable with. And honestly, anyone who can get Taylor Hall in a one to one trade for a pretty good, but not amazing d-man is doing something right.
Scheider should have played more games - at least been put in when the USA was down 3-0 to Europe so quickly knowing that was a must win game. But again - coaching decisions, want can you do. I definitely think there was some potential for chemistry with Kane and Parise and other players as well - but Torts had them practicing on different lines than he played them in games and other things that prevented chemistry. I think he was so busy playing mindgames with the media/other teams than he mindgamed himself right out of common sense.
I definitely thought the US looked pretty decent at times in the Czech game, but it seemed like it gradually tapered off as they realized this also was not going to be a game to win. And they probably all got frustrated, Buff just had a way to show it.
I'm interested in the CAN-Rus game because it will be great hockey, but it feels... like watching a TV show on repeat. Been there done that, rinse and repeat. At this point I expect CAN to win, with SWE as the only real stumbling block to that. Although short tournament - who knows.
I think there's a lot of strictures in pro athletes contracts about what they can and can't do during the season (like - no skiiing allowed for hockey players because no one wants them to break a leg). So it doesn't surprise me when players become dependent on other people to almost move them around and make decisions for them - they are taken to hotels and games on road trips on tight schedules, and at home they have to adhere to rigid health/fitness schedules as well. But I think that kind of dependence on routine and schedule can wreak havoc on players once they retire or during the off-season when they are also allowed off the leash. I think Kane is someone who has some of that problem - not only does management dominate him, but so does his father. And yeah, I'm not touching that one with a 10 ft pole because who knows what their personal relationship is like and what works for them. And Kane isn't alone, Crosby had the same problem with his father as well, at least on the training side of things (his agent started with him at like 13 so his father bowed out of business decisions early on, while Kane's dad was his agent at the draft and was apparently a pain in the ass to work with and still is very... involved with Kane contracts despite him having a superstar agent). At least neither of them have Jack Johnson's parents...
That's totally a fair point! I think that at the very least, the future of USA Hockey is pretty bright, and that's something to look forward to. I hope that looking at the success of Team NA vs that of Team USA will inspire some change. And I think the holdouts, like Lombardi's Kings, still manage to work occasionally because playing an 82 game season is very different from playing a short best-on-best tournament. No NHL team is going to be as stacked as Team Canada is, especially not with the salary cap. On any given team, there will be players who aren't elite, and the way you strategize is fundamentally different. There's less time to play around with what works and what doesn't in a tournament like the World Cup, and you're going to be facing the best players from various countries instead of a team with one or two elite lines, and then two more lines of less elite players. I guess we'll have to wait and see.
Definitely agreed! The trade stung me because I like Larsson a lot, and I do think that losing him leaves a hole in our defense - he (and Greene) played a lot of minutes and we don't know who'll replace that yet - but any time you can get a player like Hall, you do it. Especially when you're a team like the Devils and desperately need scoring. So ultimately, I think we'll be able to replace Larsson, and a player like Taylor Hall doesn't come around every day.
Yeah, Schneider should've been given more opportunity to play. And I still don't understand why Buff was scratched against Europe. I feel like I don't have anything to add to what you've already said because I agree with all of it - Torts didn't give anyone time to develop chemistry, and he (and management in general tbh) did seem more focused on other teams - especially Canada - than on themselves. :/
I watched the Rus-Can game, and I have to admit, it was more fun before Canada started steamrolling over Russia. It wasn't bad hockey! But I'm basically with you; I think it'll probably be a Swe-Can final, with Swe putting up a fight but ultimately losing to Canada. At least Canada's win over Russia means that I don't have to change the fic I've been writing? Silver linings, I guess.
All of that is definitely true. And players are even criticized if they get hurt doing something in the offseason, so there is surely a lot of pressure from management regarding their choice of activities when they aren't playing too. But it's not the same as having that same everyday routine of practice, travel, games, etc. and when they're retired, they're basically on their own. My mind just keeps going back to Carcillo's Player's Tribune article whenever I think of it. I hope there's more support for players going through that by the time Kane and Crosby retire. Hopefully articles like Carcillo's will help to force chance. And yeah, best not to speculate on Kane's family, but man Jack Johnson's story is super sad.
That's a good point about the long season vs short tournament impact on what works and what doesn't in terms of skill vs heart/grit, as well as the fact that no team will ever be as loaded as Team CAN is in the history of ever. So what works for Lombardi in LA over the whole season may just not be a good fit for a short international tournament. Although I guess I would maintain that in the last few years, the teams who win the Cup who aren't the Kings are the ones who go for skill plays rather than hard hits.
I think Larsson was a great guy and had growing potential as a d-men, but the Devils were last in goals scored last season. And have been similarly near the bottom the past couple of years. So they desperately needed a shot of offense and Hall more than provides. Also, maybe they could start winning shootouts (although with the new format, they are rare thank goodness, the Devils were what 18 out of 20 since Parise left?).
There is nothing to say about how Torts coached, other than baffling. That's pretty much the only possible description.
I managed to watch that whole game and it was wild - in the sense that going into the 3rd I thought anything was possible. I mean, that game would have been SO much higher scoring if Bobrovski hadn't stood on his head and slam dunked the whole awesome goalie thing. I don't know the exact number of shots on goal, but CAN was peppering him the whole time while Russian d-men fell over behind them, while Russian forwards weren't doing nearly enough. That said - I feel bad for Ovi because even during the game the announcers were comparing his performance to Crosby's. And I mean, Crosby is great - but he's also on an amazing line and got a lot of help from Bergie and Marchand (who ALMOST got a hat trick - Bergy tried to set him up for it and he missed an open net, but it was close). Ovi didn't seem to have that same magic with his linemates. So again - I don't like how 1 player is called out for not doing enough, and I ESPECIALLY don't like how this reflects the Crosby-Ovi comparisons that began when they both started in the NHL and how that seemed to reflect a certain ethnocentrism on the part of some Canadian hockey people (I'd look significantly at Don Cherry, but his outfit would hurt my eyes).
That Carcillo Player's Tribune article was utterly amazing. Actually both Carcillo articles have been amazing, he also talked about concussions and Steve Matador. Honestly, while Carbomb played I was meh on him because he seemed to make poor choices about when to fight - but post-retirement my respect for him has skyrocketed. He really seems to get it, to be able to articulate a lot of the issues, and to want to do something to help. I'd love it if he could collaborate with the NHLPA to do more to create a support system for retired players, including ones dealing with CTE issues.
OK, the SWE-Europe game is on. I expect SWE to win, but who even knows - it's a 1 game elimination game - Lundvquist sneezes at the wrong moment and Europe gets the game-winning goal. Anything's possible. And whoever wins gets the "pleasure" of playing CAN.
Wow! Looks like Europe did win after all! I hadn't expected that at all. I know that winning goal was under review, but on the replays it doesn't seem like it was kicked in, so looks to me like the call should stand, as it did. And Europe did play well, from what I saw, although I missed the first period and a lot of the second. I don't think they have any chance against Canada, but who knows. I didn't think they had a chance against Sweden, either.
Anyway, yeah, I don't disagree with you - that old school grit doesn't seem to work for the Bruins, and the teams other than the Kings who've made the finals have been trending to speedy and skilled. The Pens and the Hawks are both more known for their skill than for hits. But I do think it's easier to handle those two teams over the course of a long season than it is to handle Team Canada during a short tournament!
Definitely! And to get a player like Hall, you need to make sacrifices. Usually you'd need to sacrifice more than what the Devils did to get a player like him. And I know that Shero said he wouldn't have given up Larsson if Hall wasn't coming back in return, so we absolutely got amazing value. And seeing Hall stickhandling during training camp - man, it's so exciting!
Bobrovski was really amazing. He absolutely kept the Russians in the game. I do agree re: feeling bad for Ovi, though, and I think you're right about a certain ethnocentrism on the part of Canadian announcers when they talk about Crosby vs Ovi. I think Ovi often gets the short end of the stick. I've noticed it about Russian players in general, and it seems to mirror the dialog that gets brought up between skilled players vs gritty players too. Like, Russians are highly skilled and creative, but they are lazy, have no heart, etc. etc. where as North American players have tons of heart and grit and are willing to do the dirty work.
Yes, I think it'd be awesome if he could collaborate with the NHLPA to create something like that! Some sort of support system, and some sort of program to educate players and give them techniques to handle the transition from playing into retirement in a healthy way would do a lot to help players, I think. I also often wonder if it would do good to promote the idea of players seeing therapists while they're still playing, too. At the very least, I feel like it would help young players learn how to handle suddenly having a lot of money and fame at an early age.
Wow, Europe won - but Gaborik is now out with a foot injury for 6-8 weeks. So... I mean, they may surprise everyone again, but down their best player and up against the CAN powerhouse, I wouldn't place bets. I think a moral victory of sorts would simply be winning 1 game honestly - but again, as we saw, anything is possible! And really - they've been gelling really well, much better than other teams, so their victory is hard earned and well-done. Of course, the other team that gelled immediately was CAN so...
IDK though - Matt Murray is out with a broken thumb, Seguin with a hairline fracture of his heel and now Gaborik with a foot injury of some kind - all out 4-6 weeks. That's got to be making some GMs/coaches super-wary of the world cup in the future.
So the Europe-SWE game was very interesting - they actually did seem pretty evenly matched I thought, and my fear regarding SWE's offense not being there feels justified. I mean, I think also that the winning goal being reviewed so the game ultimately depended on ref'ing makes me tense as well, and the 2nd (I think) Europe goal was weak - but had SWE simply scored more neither would be at issue. I just can't see CAN having the same issues as SWE though. That's a team hardwired to win basically.
Hall has SO much talent and the Oilers tried to find ways to use him, but ultimately their style just isn't a winning style - all offense, no defense doesn't win games. So they needed to change things up by getting a young, good d-man and the Devils needed offense, so it was a good deal. Also... I think that there would have been issues in the locker room with Hall passed over yet again for the C. There apparently were when Ference came in to take the C, with 2 locker room groups (similar apparently to the Habs issues with Pacioretty and Subban). So I think Hall gets a new start with the Devils getting offense, but the Oilers get better defense and a united locker room. So I actually think beyond the players themselves, there were other factors in play that made this a good deal for both. And if Hall says he now feels a need to prove himself... Well, a motivated scorer like him would not be a bad thing for the Devils.
Yeah, there's definitely an ethnocentrism effect by commentators in the NHL where Russian players are not valued. And that leads to things like the untrue-ism that Ovi quits on his team and blah blah blah - I don't think that is true at all and feels like it's just a way of building up "their boys" who have heart. :P Canada may be a very progressive country overall, but I feel like hockey culture stalled at some point or only gradually creeps forward, so you get ugly ethnocentrism and homophobia, etc still.
I think it's an excellent idea for players to see therapists and get their heads straight on their shoulders during their career rather than having them skid into despair afterward. Although that goes back to hockey culture and how they venerate "tough" guys, etc so they probably wouldn't be open to it. :(
I heard that Gaborik was out. I think it will be very hard for Europe to beat Canada; it was always going to be hard for anyone to beat Canada, but like you said, they're down their best player now. Meanwhile, Canada can lose a great player like Seguin - who isn't even their best player - and still be incredibly deep. I'm still interested in seeing how Europe holds their own tonight, but I wouldn't be surprised if Canada beats them as thoroughly as they've beaten everyone else.
But I agree; I think these injuries will definitely make GMs/coaches wary of holding the World Cup in the future. I'm sure that they would much rather have all their players healthy for their own teams. I'm not sure when else it could be held though - players whose teams go deep into the playoffs aren't going to want to go during the beginning of the summer when they could be resting instead. And you can't hold it during the playoffs. I guess we'll have to wait and see.
Yeah, I can't see Canada having the same problem with scoring that Sweden did, but I do agree that I'm iffy on the way the game was ultimately decided by the refs' review, even if I did agree with the decision in the end. I just think Canada is way too stacked with talent to lose, but I suppose anything can happen.
Oh man, I can't stop staring at this gif of Hall splitting Montreal's defense during the preseason game last night. He didn't score there (though if I recall, he was involved in both of Henrique's goals) but it's just so exciting and impressive to have a player who can do that. The Devils desperately need someone like him. I did hear that there was some tension when Ference came in and was given the C over Hall, and I don't think that necessarily reflects on Hall's character, though there was a lot of criticism from Edmonton's media after the trade. (I have been taking that with a grain of salt, because it often felt like them trying to justify a trade that upset the fanbase.)
Anyway, the Oilers and the media spent years talking about how Hall will save the franchise, etc. etc. and then it never happened - more because of how incompetently the Oilers have been run in recent years than because of Hall alone - and then they win the lottery again and draft McDavid and the narrative changes to how McDavid will save the franchise, and while I don't think that there were any problems between Hall and McDavid, I can absolutely see why there might be tension in the locker room. I think the change of scenery is going to be really good for Hall, especially because he's coming into a situation with steady vets like Green and (hopefully!) Elias and because New Jersey is not a hockey market in the same way that Edmonton is a hockey market, and both of those things will probably take the pressure off of Hall so that he can just focus on doing what he does best.
Haha, I do think there is a bit of national pride involved in the building up of "good old Canadian boys" versus Russian and other European players. And hockey culture does seem very much like an old boys' club a lot of the time - the same coaches and GMs get recycled over and over again; when a coach gets fired, it's likely they'll get a job with another team pretty quickly - and I think that also contributes to the way hockey culture seems like it kind of lags behind the rest of Canada in progressiveness. If it works, why should they change it, you know? I think also the focus on putting team before everything makes it hard for change, at least with regards to homophobia - a gay player might not want to come out for fear of being seen as putting himself before the team or as trying to cause a distraction to the team, etc. That's not the only reason, I think, but I feel like it maybe plays a part.
Yeah, sadly I don't think many players would be open to seeing therapists during their careers. It's the same aspect of hockey culture that has players playing through injuries. It's a shame because it could probably help a lot of players who suffer needlessly because they don't know how to cope in a healthy way.
Hey, since we were talking about the Devils - I don't know if you are on their email? If you dl the NHL app and make the Devils your official/favorite team, they'll send you an email (to the email you use for your app store) for how to redeem 2 free tickets to a home game. They are having some bugs in their system right now, I guess, but are trying to help. And 2 free tickets, even in the nosebleeds, is better than no tickets. :) Just wanted to let you know. I think there's a way to do it if you have the NHL app already, but I'd have to go back and read the email.