Official announcements and happiness!
New Community: Ending Toxic Discourse
I just created a new community for those who are interesting in ending toxic discourse. It's not gonna be exclusively dedicated to social justice stuff, but it'll probably come up a lot.
Personally, the one thing that bothers me about the mainstream SJ community is that you'd expect them to oppose bullying of any variety. Of course, the "anti-SJW" side isn't exactly any better - since, whilst they do make good points about "SJ bullying", they often resort to bullying behaviour themselves.
So, right now, my dilemma is that I don't really have a community to call my own. I don't know how many of you also follow Polls, but this is the source of my recent issues over like: feeling that I don't have any type of support group to turn to or identify with.
I'm hoping that my brand new Ending Toxic Discourse community can help remedy that.
ETA: I've thought over now where all I went wrong, and I apologize for being super aggressive towards some users who commented! I should've followed the "assume good faith" code myself, instead of just insisting that everyone else does so. Peace. <3




This may set me up as "rude" as well, but I'm not really feeling this comm.
The thing is that part of detoxifying debate, for me, is allowing a bit of push and pull and space for frustration, without reacting and assuming bad faith. What gets me with tumblr is the 100% Emotion 100% of the Time, and it can be exhausting, and I don't like how people get piled on for no reason (seriously some of the Sherlock stuff in the last year has been brutal, dressed up as social justice or not).
But at the same time, making a space without room for disagreement, even if expressed in a way that you're calling "rude" here (which is honestly pretty mild?), and then asking commenters to "denounce" each other for being at worst mildly rude? That to me seems like "Same toxic, different flavour."
I didn't think you were rude, at all. You just simply expressed some ideas that I disagree with, and that's fine. I just wish people here could be more compassionate, instead of doubling down. I wish people could see that I'm hurting, and be more supporting.
With that being said, thank you for not being rude. *hugs*
Peace! <3.
I respect that, and I'm sorry this debate has been rough on you, I am. But this is like seriously a very mild disagreement and has mostly been polite. If you're finding that emotionally stressful, than maybe running a comm about discussions where people may well not agree and may well do so in terms that you see as rude (even if they do not), might not be the best idea for your mental health and well being.
Honestly, the person who has spent the most time doubling down on this thread is you, and you've also been the most rude.
I really do want to support a kinder more compassionate community, where discussion can happen in good faith, but this isn't what that looks like, in my experience.
I just didn't like the first comment that was made. I wasn't here trying to start a debate - and, in the emotional state I was in, I just found the comment to be unnecessarily harsh. If they knew me from Polls, they should've known that I wasn't in the best emotional state at the time.
Strangers are not responsible for your emotional state. You made a post that is, frankly, wank-bait, with its screed about bullying and SJs and whatever, then got defensive and rude, while accusing others of being rude.
For your own sake, take a break, and come back when you are in a better state. Make a cup of tea, take a nap, whatever you need to be in a happier state.
I'm feeling calmer, now. You and a few others made some good coping suggestions, and I'll take it all into consideration.
I tend to have those times, too - where I maybe say things that tend to come out sounding harsher than intended, such as with the poll in question. So I need to apply "assume good faith" to myself, as well. Don't assume that every comment that comes off as a bit harsh is meant to be that way. So that's where I went wrong, and I apologize.
Be your own change, dude, and stop trying to make others wear kid gloves for you. You can't control bad shit happening to you, and you can't control how you feel about it, but you can control your reaction, and you are missing your own point in this whole brouhaha. You're asking others to do what it is you already do, and you don't get that you can't change that. And in the process of all that, you are coming across as whiny, drama-starting, and plain immature.
If people are not using outright hateful speech; e.g., sexist, threatening, racist, etc., then you're just gonna have to deal when people use descriptors you don't like.
Like, I agree with you about the general idea of productive and proactive communication, but starting a community specifically to foster censored feedback (and yes, that's what it is) is just not a good idea, especially when you've been going on about it ad nauseum for days.. But you just have to set your own example and let others make examples of themselves. You are trying too hard and then wondering why no one wants what you want.
The whole idea of Imzy is to foster community and tolerance. Just because people disagree with you or think you troll doesn't mean that's intolerant or not supportive (in fact I'd say it's better to say "This is something I can't support, I think your behavior is X, I'm outta here but thanks" because people then recognize their own limitations and possible open you to other perspectives than to make everyone only speak up if they agree with the topic at hand).
I just wish that someone could see that I'm hurting, right now - and offer a sympathetic ear. I'm neurodivergent. I just felt bad that some people felt the need the need to double down.
I did not create this post to start a debate. I just created a post to promote by community.
It's clear that you're upset, and maybe you're not in the right mindset to take new advice on board at the moment, but when you're feeling a little better I really hope you take the time to consider what people have been saying to you. I think the vast majority of people responding to you have been fair, respectful and earnest in their attempts to help you or at least explain their own points of view, and it may be worth thinking about what they've said.
Thanks for your advice. After thinking over what all happened, I realized that messed up in two area. Sometimes, we might make comments that come off seeming ruder than intended - so that might have been jumping to conclusions on my part. On the flip side, some of the thing I've said likely came off as being rude. So what I've taken from this is that we need empathy from both sides. People should try to be polite - but, at the same time, we also need to understand that some people might say things that come off sounding ruder than intended.
So the hypocrisy on my part was not following the "assume good faith" as I was insisting others should do, and thus I apologize.
If you can't cope with people mildly disagreeing with you, you maybe need to find a hobby that is not disagreeing with people on the internet. I hear knitting is nice. Video games are popular.
If you're having such a terrible fragile bad day, the best way to deal is not to expect a bunch of strangers who don't know you from Adam to wrap you in cotton wool. They don't know or care who you are or what you're going through, because they're thousands of random internet strangers. This comm has tens of thousands of members. It is not a support group. If you need a support group, try looking for a place designed for that instead of trying to turn /polls into one, or making an 'ending discourse' community that you actually want to just provide hugs for you when you're sad. Try group therapy, maybe?
Seriously, this isn't healthy.
I guess I need to work on "assuming good faith", myself. I guess we all have those times where we say things that might come out sounding harsher than expected - and I can be guilty of that, as well.
ETA: Please denounce the commenters who deemed it fit to make unnecessarily rude comments towards me, and gimme hope that Imzy isn't just gonna be another Reddit!
"Denounce"? And this doesn't amount to an attempt to witch hunt because there can be no disagreement? Grow up.
And you're being rude, too! If people have a problem with me, they can word it in a way that is constructive and tactful. What is so bloody hard to understand about that! "Grow up" is not a constructive a tactful thing to say to someone. Fuck you!!
Yeah yeah, everyone is rude. You just ended a comment with 'fuck you!!'.
I'm going to tell you something for free that took me far too many years and far too much pain to learn. When everyone around you is being an asshole, there's a really good chance it isn't them.
Now, call me rude, tell me to fuck off, and let's move on with our lives. I still encourage you to take that walk and clear your mind.
Please, for all our good, go eat a sandwich, take a walk, and come back to this.
I honestly can't tell, at this point, if you're trolling or not, you're so perfectly embodying what you say you're trying to deconstruct.
Woah please take a step back before getting that aggressive with folks who weren't nearly that aggressive with you.
I just wanted some compassion. I wish people could see that I'm hurting. If they can already see that I'm in a very sensitive state at the moment, they can maybe try not contributing to it, as well. My mental health is in a very bad state, right now.
Hey I'm sorry you're having a rough time of it, I really am. I wonder if it might work better to take a bit of a break and play some video games or do something you enjoy for a bit?
Thank you for being understanding. I don't expect for you or anyone else to agree with me, but I think you seem like a fair leader. Playing some video games sounds like a good idea.
Peace. *hugs*
Cheers, enjoy your games and take care of yourself. It's more important. :)
have you considered the exact same thing can be said for those who have responded to you? anyway, yes, take that time out.
I'm sorry about the "fuck you", at the end. I did snap, and it was wrong of me to say that. I just wish more of us could try to be more polite in our lives. None of us are perfect, I know - but, if we slip up, then we should apologize... like I just did.
So that's that. <3
Neat community idea, but you're not being bullied just because people think your polls are dumb and your tangents about Jimmy Reed and Avenged Sevenfold are annoying.
By using the word "dumb", though - you are being a bit rude. You could construct that complaint in a more tactful way, okay?
Also, maybe instead of making a rude and incredibly vague statement like "your polls are dumb" - maybe you could explain exactly how you see my polls as "dumb"... and refrain from using the "dumb" descriptor.
Jesus christ are you really upset by such an inane comment?
You're being awfully rude, as well!! Sheesh! Is it actually that hard for people to not be rude?!
I am not asking for people to gimme a million dollars. I'm just simply asking for people to not be rude! Is that too much to ask for?!
Yes, I'm going to say I believe it is. While admittedly the sample size is small, you are giving the impression that anyone who dares disagree, or not even that, just fails to agree with you, is 'rude'. Also, you are attacking someone for supposedly calling you dumb. Maybe go take a walk, clear your mind, then come back and reread what they actually said.
I don't have a problem with people disagreeing with me. I just think they could word things a bit more tactfully. It's been a bad couple of days for me, and I wasn't expecting to be attacked on this post.
If people have a problem with something I do, fine. Just word it in a way that's constructive and tactful. That's all I'm asking for.
It's the internet. Not everyone is going to have a filter or have the time to make sure it's word perfect to make sure your feelings don't get hurt.
I'm totally for safe spaces and all of that, but you're way over reacting here. Sorry.
Your polls are varying combinations of inane, annoying, biased, pointless to anyone but you, attention-seeking, excessively frequent and sometimes incoherent.
Is that better?
I'm... not sure what to think of this when I'm not sure what you mean by toxic talk. I mean, different people apply that term to different things.
they're too reasonable to actually agree with a lot of the outrightly racist/sexist/misogynist groups, but they're not yet willing to do the work examining their embedded presumptions that's leading their reflexive dislike of sj spaces. that's been my observation.
I think you're right. That was me for a long time, as well. It could also be a fear a backlash from the SJ militant types.
Also, not everyone that gets labeled an "SJW" fits the "SJ militant" descriptor. Some get labeled "SJWs" simply for having special pronouns, which doesn't hurt anyone else.
Peace! <3
going through your other replies in this post... in addition to what i've read from you, i do genuinely think however you're not making a distinction of when and how and why different responses occur. what does it mean to 'be mean', for example? you must've heard about the ill-intent contained in insisting all discussions follow some kind of 'polite' standard, ie the tone argument.
have you explored within yourself what is it about the tone argument you dislike to the point you cannot see that in certain spaces, certain responses are valid and must be allowed? in specific communities and spaces, one isn't required to be politic at all times because it's also a space of commisseration and frustration. we can make an argument if especially looking at tumblr infrastructure, the boundaries of such spaces are extremely fluid to the point of being invisible leading to out-group wankery (or discourse, as the kids call it these days), but trying to police the tone without even at all trying to be compassionate or accepting of the frustration to me seems very futile in the 'old man shaking hands at sky' kind of way.
even if i myself sometimes find the performative aggro tiring, but you know, i often step back and see for myself where is it that i see the message. if it was a tumblr post tht's somehow gained virality, then if the personal cry of frustration became viral because it resonated with many, then it still doesn't remove the original communication was definitely intended as an in-group message.
but more importantly, if it comes from an oppressed position, quite very honestly that instance of 'being mean' has done nothing at all to harm or threaten anyone in a majority position, except maybe hurt their feelings. and to that, so what? i've had to be in positions of power where i became a representative of power and had to listen to frustrations that in that moment, seemed to be addressed to me, even if i myself was actively occupying other positions of oppression (ie the whole crux of intersectionality). that is their moment, the articulation of powerlessness, and sure, i get to feel bad at that moment. but when i go home, even as i try to work towards reducing harm, they're still actively living it.
Venting among like-minded folks is one thing. I'm not gonna condemn people for that. However, for example, say there is an intersectional feminist community. That is cool and all. However, if people feel the need to start being excessive hostile towards straight/cis/white people, it make the community a bit hostile place for the women in the communities who fit any of those descriptors. I've had a problem with it, in the past - and was formerly afraid to speak up on that.
It doesn't help when "anti-SJWs" condemn that behaviour, but then feel the need to turn around and belittle all "SJWs" (even the ones that don't fit the "SJ militant" descriptor) - thereby making them just as mean as the SJ militants. It makes me feel like I have nowhere to turn. I need a community that opposes bullying in all flavours, even if it doesn't fit neatly into an oppressor/oppressed dynamic - which is important, but not the only important thing.
Peace! *hugs*
tribal behaviours like performativeness of established ingroup targets of hostility can lead to bad communal norms, but don't think that isn't itself already not being discussed and called out. and people's reflexive terse responses to your ideas may be for you useless, but still valid and not at all worthy of being denounced, if they're not actually abusive. you're too sensitised to this whole idea of being attacked. i think you need to do a lot of work before you could even contemplate leading such a community to 'end toxic discourse', because you have unclear ideas yourself about what that means exactly, and your 'take all comers' attitude will not help foster the community you want nor the behavioural change you seek.
+1
Pretty much exactly this.
Finally, a polite commenter! Thank you so much! *hugs*
I'm not thinking only of SJ discourse, even though that's the one that most concerns me at the moment. To sum it up as succinctly as possible: SJ militants tend to demonize you if you tell them not to be mean to men/cis/straight/white people. Likewise, "anti-SJWs" also tend to demonize you if you tell them not to be mean to "SJWs" (who don't all fit the "SJ militant" descriptor).
A non-SJ example would be belittling other people for liking certain types of music that you don't like. I hope it helps.
Peace! <3
The term "Social Justice Warrior" helps justify violence against people who stand up for justice. Threats against their families.
The original poster wrote "Fuck you!!" after simply reading "Grow up." "Grow up" represents less than 1% of the physical & mental abuse people I know often get in an hour! What words would he use if it were dialed to 80%?
Excellent point.
(Hmm, thought I deleted this comment quickly once I saw the apology post. Then added this comment there, with modifications to make it more conciliatory.)
ITT: "rude"