Community centering those whose gender identity does not fit within the gender binary. All genders welcome!
Turning the name into a non-subject: How to be pseudo-gender-neutral in gendered languages.
This post will probably look like a rambly mess, but it is a rambly mess.
The easiest way to use pseudo-gender-neutral in languages that allow it is to turn the name into a predicate, adjective, or something else. Rather than saying "Soni is cool, they gave me money" you say "The human Soni is cool, it/they gave me money" (this sounds less weird if you imagine an english-speaking ET saying it).
It's clunky, and some ppl assume gender based on the term you're using, but overall, I'd say it at least conveys intent. And it's a language-neutral (read: translatable) way to be gender-neutral. If you wanna write an international fiction book with gender-neutral characters, this is the way to go.




"it" generally refers only to objects and isn't seen as a pronoun used for humans. Most consider it extremely dehumanizing and offensive when used to refer to humans.
That's fair, it sounds clunky in English. In a gendered language it won't be the pronoun "it", though. For example in German, I could say "Soni ist eine nette Person, sie hat mir Geld gegeben". The pronoun "sie" is the equivalent to "she". [Or I could use "der Mensch"(=the human being) and use the pronoun "er"(=he).]
Yeah I could see it making sense in German, but not as some "universal" and "language-neutral" thing.
Feel free to use "The human Soni is cool, they gave me money" if you want to. It really is language-neutral for the simple fact that it works in most, if not all, languages - English included.
I take it you don't know any gendered languages and/or never studied the English language's grammar, syntax, semantics, etc?
Thanks for the condescension but yes I know gendered languages and have studied English extensively. Jerk.
That comment seems kinda unnecessary to me.
Then how come you don't understand the idea behind using "it" when referring to the noun "person"?
In english, "it" is widely seen as offensive when used as a pronoun. Like, look literally anywhere or talk to any of us who have been called "it" as a slur a shit ton of times by bigots.
Can it work in some gendered languages? Sure, but as some sort of "universal" thing, it's going to upset and offend a shit ton of english speaking nonbinary people, myself included.
I met a dog. It was a cute dog. Note the pronoun I just used. Intent matters.
Dogs aren't people, hope this helps!
In english, you do not call people "it" except if you are trying to demean or insult them, like calling them a dog!
(there are a rare few nonbinary english speaking people who use "it" as their primary pronoun, but they are by far the exception to the rule)
Here's how I'm not insulting anyone:
that is totally not what was being implied and I feel like you keep moving the goalposts. Not sure if you're just trolling and I should block, tbh.
Of course I'm "moving the goalposts". You don't accept my explanations so I need to come up with different ones... So feel free to pick one:
At least I'm not insulting you... (not intentionally at least - I wasn't being condescending when you said I was: there was a question mark there, meant to indicate doubt about my assumption)
I think you need to work on that, because it absolutely came across as condescending and rude.
I could say the same about you. Compare your comment to @K_Glass's here.
I think most people would prefer to use "they" like in your first example, but I could be wrong! Edit: I do love when people play with language like this though, it's a very interesting idea and I hadn't thought of it before.
Yeah, I don't like it much in English either. It really works a lot better in gendered languages where "human" isn't neutral.
I think it works in French, too!
(Uh... Let's just say someone's post/comment history inspired me to make this post...)
I would rather use 'they' because 'it' sounds like an insult.
I never said you should use 'it' specifically, it was just an example. :)
The cool thing about 'they' though is that it feels like there's more respect accorded to the person, like the way you would address someone with a title. Of course, as an ESL, that might be attribution simply because in my native language, the pronoun translated as 'they' is also used to refer to people of seniority and higher rank.
Yeah, that is probably a holdover. In modern English, the "royal we" (as a similar effect is known) is very rare (and only applicable to first-person) and the singular "they" is not likely to be noticed at all except in writing, (unless it is emphasized like people often do when using it for nonbinary people) and people are more likely to react negatively to it because they see it as incorrect English than anything else, if they react at all.
Native English speakers react negatively to 'they' in written form? Or is in speech? I've never encountered this sort of feedback. Is it because they perceive it to be plural?
(referring to a single person, I mean)
It is widely (though incorrectly) believed that "they" must absolutely refer to a group of referents in English, which is why in formal writing such terrible constructs as "s/he" are more common than the infinitely better "they".
It is becoming less so these days, and usually only amongst pedantics and third grade english teachers.
Oooh, I like that topic! So I'll add some rambly mess of my own:
I see your point about translation and I guess only referring to that person as "person" or anything else that is considered neutral, and followed by a pronoun that does not change with the specific persons gender, will work in many languages. I'd like to point out though that that's not the only way to translate "they" into these languages (and also that it's not necessarily the writer's task to make translation easy).
I mean, nonbinary people who use these languages usually have their own ways of handling these difficulties, and a translator who is familiar with those solutions (or compromises) can use them.
In the German translation of "Gender Failure" (by Rae Spoon and Ivan Coyote, German title is "Goodbye Gender", yes German titles are often just easier English words than in the original), "they" was translated as "x". x is one of the more well known nonbinary pronouns in German (even though criticized for racist implications). So, these translations exist. Of course, x is still not known by anyone but people involved in queer stuff, and the publisher is also small and queer, so if we're talking about mainstream, things might be… less possible.
Just in case you're interested: If I'd try to say your sentence in German without your construct and without using any neopronouns, I'd probably say "Soni ist cool, Soni hat mir Geld gegeben"/"Soni is cool, Soni gave me money", just using the name. When paying less attention to sounding acceptable, and still not knowing Soni's pronouns, I'd probably use xier (a somewhat complicated neopronoun that is relatively well known in queer and feminist spaces) or ersie (literally "heshe", but without the transmisogynist implications that has in English – not super popular because it's just both traditional pronouns combined, but fairly common because easy).
You already mentioned assuming gender based on the term that is used – reading "Der Mensch Soni ist cool, er hat mir Geld gegeben" I would probably assume that they're a guy because of the he (human is grammatically masculine and thus needs he), and I think the intentions might be lost to most people. Technically it's neutral-ish because humans can be of any gender, but the structure is also so uncommon that the still-gendered pronoun could overshadow the technical neutrality. (And also because sexism and automatically assuming dude as neutral, yes.)
Another sidenote related to other discussions on this thread, I know a remarkable number of people who use "es" (it) as their pronoun in German. Yes, it's rude when used without consent and yes, it carries all the implications that it does in English, but it is also easy to use and easy to explain because everyone knows it already. Personally, it took me some time before I allowed people that I'm not close friends with to use it for me, but now I really like it.
Actually, "Der Mensch Soni ist cool, es hat mir Geld gegeben" (using it instead of the he that is grammatically acceptable to refer to Mensch) would probably get the point across. Not the solution I'd choose intuitively, but yes. I like the way it sounds a bit alien.
Also, things get interesting when saying things like "The human Soni, who is my neighbor-y person…" :D But this is already long so I'll stop.