Just celebrating the winteriron ship from Marvel! Popularly the MCU version, but any universe is good!
Characterization and Plot Discussion?
Hi! Since Imzy is better for discussing things than tumblr, I thought it might be nice to talk about the characters and how/what we're writing, or wondering about :)
What characterizations do you like? What are tropes you like or dislike for winteriron? Plot ideas? Things you would want to write, but can't for some reason?
I am currently planning to write some short things in a 616 AU (because winteriron should get more Identity Porn). By now I am so used to MCU Bucky, that characterization for comic Bucky is hard for me, though. Would he feel guilty for what he did as WS? I think the does, he just doesn't try to show it. Would he be worried about hurting friends, after he discovers there are still triggers?
I also really like the idea that MCU Bucky tried to stay away and out of the fighting and might actually not want to fight anymore.
What do you think? Are there other things/ideas you like?




I want to actually write some winteriron! I'm such a procrastinator everything's a bit of a work-in-progress at the moment, though.
I'm a sucker for soulmate-AUs and wish there were more for this pair! (Any recs?) I have about three different fic starts already, though they're all stalled :'(
I'm unfamiliar with 616, but I also like the idea that MCU Bucky's sick of the fighting too- I got the sense that he was kind of tired with the whole thing in CW. I think if Zemo hadn't interfered he would have been happy handing himself in and dealing with whatever justice was doled out - an AU idea, maybe?
Ah, yeah, I procrastinate a lot, too....
I've read some soulmate fics, but i don't think I'll find them right now, sorry... (I am not very good at reccing...)
I could imagine Bucky just retiring :D buuuut the stories will probably pull him back into a fight somehow, anyway... But it might make a nice fanfic :D
Yeah, I'd imagine he'd try to retire but would be dragged back into it all the time, particularly if he's at the Avengers compound! Soon enough he'd be back in the fray, I'm sure :) (That'd make a fun five-times fic, actually - five times Bucky tried to retire and one time he just went for it? I can imagine him slowly getting used to being back in the fight again, and then realising he doesn't mind it so much after all.)
.......... damn you now I want that fic! Such a good idea for a five times fic.......
I have a few recs!!
Don't Say It by bibliomaniac is a fic where Tony is autistic and nonverbal in a world where soulmates are identified by the first words you speak to each other. So of course his soulmates(!) Steve and Bucky don't have his words, but he has theirs. It's a WIP and so far it's all been set up and mostly Steve and Tony interaction, but it's fun, I think!
Seismology by seadragon is a soulmate au, where anything you write on yourself shows up on your soulmate! Tony tries to communicate to his soulmate, who never responds. Also a WIP, but has college Tony doing his best and Bucky as the Winter Soldier being Super Confused about the weird writing appearing on him
Soulmate Day by finely_honed is a no powers au soulmate meetcute!! Dezi's writing is, as always, amazing.
and of course there's always the Imagin Tony and Bucky blog which most likely will have a fill for any of your needs!! (this links to the soulmate tag!)
Ooh, thanks so much! I think I've read nearly all of finely_honed's winteriron (and there's so much of it! and it's all so well-written!) but the rest are new to me!
finely_honed is, so good. Her, potrix, and everyworldneedslove are honestly such huge names in the winteriron fandom ;v; but i still rec them just in case ahha!
I'm sorry this is so long... akfjas I'll make a different comment for the other parts of your post OTL
I love love 616 winteriron, there isn't very much of it! I'm not very well versed in 616 Bucky (Ultimates Bucky is Old and Married) but from what I've gathered he's very much Entrenched in Guilt with a huge amount of Steve-related issues since he did grow up in Steve's shadow. Bucky was Steve's 15 year old sidekick, who was trained as a sniper and marksman and did a lot of 616 Steve's wetwork back in the day (616 Steve Does Not Use Guns, bucky is fond of them).
His time as the Winter Soldier is a little different as well. Notably, he did not receive any version of the Serum. He's mortal, at peak physical condition, with minor super strength via his arm and a variety of sensors and stuff also via the arm. Instead of shock therapy and manual mind wipes, more conventional methods of indoctrination was used (amnesia was apparently a natural side effect of the cryostasis, and sensory deprivation was a major part in conditioning him to hate The West). He was recovered by Russia, not Hydra, and was heavily involved in Red Room activities (his past with Natasha~).
AFAIK, 616 Winter Soldier was not involved in Tony's parents' deaths (an iron man rogue was involved in that, I think?). But! ahha, Steve, Bucky and the rest of the Invaders did get transported to the future once and Bucky briefly met Tony out of armor (and beat him up) though I don't think Bucky remembers that.
The other major interaction Bucky has with Tony is after Steve's death, since the whole Civil War thing happens almost as soon as Bucky stops being the Winter Soldier. Bucky partially blames Tony for Steve's death (like, basically the rest of the superhero community) and tries to kill him. They fight each other to the standstill, but when Tony reveals that Steve's last wish was for Tony to help Bucky stay healthy and in his right mind, and keep the Captain America mantel alive, Bucky stops trying to kill him, mostly. Tony hands off the Cap mantel to Bucky, who agrees on certain conditions. Tony builds him a new costume. He does the whole dark and gritty Captain America thing. ((there's also the secret wars civil war thing, where civil war lasted MUCH LONGER and tony is President Stark and Bucky is totally on his side))
I think he drops the Cap costume for his Winter Soldier name for awhile, I'm not sure on the specifics.
So! Bucky feels a huge amount of guilt for his actions as the Winter Soldier, he feels overwhelmed often trying to live up to Cap's reputation but refuses to compromise his own, uh, morals? He doesn't try to do things like Steve would, he does them how he would. Which, admittedly causes a lot of strife concerning the public perception of him and how other superheroes view him (clint and sam in particular disapprove of him, though sam partners with him still). As part of his deal with Tony, all of his mind implants have been removed, I think. Comic books deal much more with straight up mind control than brain washing, I think?
616 Bucky's history is very intertwined with Natasha's, which is great because Nat also has a strong history with Tony! As well as having a strong connection with Steve, whom, Tony.. also has a strong connection with.
The wiki)'s abridged and unabridged articles on bucky should be really helpful concerning his history and events that have shaped him!
OMG, such a long comment, I love it thank you! Uhm, I probably should have started by saying that, yeah, i do read comics, but it's been some time since I read Brubaker's cap.
Bucky drops the Cap mantle briefly after information about his past as Winter Soldier is leaked and he goes on trial.
I thiiiink he's back as Cap until he "dies" in Fear itself. Afterwards, most people think he's dead, and he works with natasha for shield.
As for the brainwashing: yeah, it's different. As far as i know they only did anything more than just some indoctrination after he got caught with Natasha. BUT I also thought there was at least one mention of him running off when in america, resulting in him being wiped more often, and one mention of some guy having him as bodyguard, thinking it is funny bucky is following all their orders and everything. So I thought there was some memory wiping involved later? It was somewhere in Brubaker's cap, but I didn't want to reread it all.
Also different is that he got all his memories back in one go, so no "half remembering bucky" like in a lot of MCU fic.
I was mostly thinking of creating an AU where Bucky is found earlier, but still had his time as Winter Soldier. I'm having some trouble making sense of what makes him tick, though. I do think he feels guilty about what he did as WS, but mostly shows it differently (reckless behaviour; going alone into countries he KNOWS he is wanted; later when he feels very down, he goes to people to confess what he did, but beats them uo too, when they attack). He also seems to be ok with killing people... He kills henchman regularily, and later takes over Fury's job as "man on the wall", killing people/aliens who might become a threat. By now he doesn't kill anymore, as far as i know, but that took a whole "he fell in love with a pacifist alien" comic arc [Oh GOD, now that I write it out, wouldn't that be an epic idea to have him fall in love with 616 Tony, who has all these strong opinions about not killing?]. Basically: Bucky seems like he feels guilty, but he still walks around beating pople up and killing. On the other hand it would fit well enough to have him join the avengers after being found, because he definetly still wants to fight for the good guys.
Would he ever be worried he's dangerous? that he'd hurt his friends? (I like that MCU bucky is showing all his hurt a lot more) I think most of the triggers he had in 616 were for shutting him down. Later he gets brainwashed again and attacks friends, but that needed some new brainwashing. Storywise, I think tony got all triggers out when he gets Bucky to take over the Cap mantle. In, like, 3 panels. (Gotta love comics :D)
Anyway: I want more ANGST! Bucky can show how guilty he feels a little more, but i'm not sure how to do it....
(this way or that, i'd LOVE to chat more about comic winteriron, because i LOVE Bucky working with tony after steve's death. And my heart BROKE when i realized Tony forgot he even knew bucky with the brain deletion. And should you find more parallels or even nice moments of them together, I'm trying to gather the info at 616winterironinfo.tumblr.com)
askldfjs sorry ahha! I'm glad you've read them, I'm still trying to read the Iron Man comics, I have no clue when I'll be able to get around to Cap and Bucky's runs. ;v;
AH, yeah, Bucky I think doesn't have much compunction about killing "the bad guys" and I think that's very much related to his early career as a military brat. Henchmen and stuff are bad people doing bad things and thus, the guilt in killing them isn't near the level as what might happen if an innocent civilian is involved. The same with preemptively taking out threats. That's how Bucky alleviates his guilt. He may have been remade into a Dark and Gritty Assassin, but he can use these skills to protect the world.
I'm always reminded by MCU Tony in this! Because Tony kills henchmen as well. In IM3 he does allow one guy to surrender and run away, but he doesn't hesitate to kill. The only time he really does, is when he's fighting Obadiah in a cut scene where there's that whole Simba/Scar scene (Stane is about to fall off the edge and Tony actually tries to help before Stane does the I'm Going To Drag You Down With Me). MCU Tony and 616 Bucky use their, ah, unfortunate skills I guess, to help protect the world. Tony does foster a lot of guilt, but it's not usually centered on bad guys unless he's blaming himself for those bad guys' actions.
616 Tony will also take out the bad guy if he has to, though he's much more conflicted about it. IE, his fight with Mallen, where Tony is pushed to his absolute limits and still feels incredibly sorry when he has to kill Mallen. He knows it's necessary sometimes but thinks he should be able to think a way around the matter.
KLdjf I got off topic sorry!! I definitely think Bucky is concerned about his danger levels, and the threat of brain washing! He isolates himself a lot, and I'm sure it's because he thinks he's dangerous to the people he cares about. I think his guilt would center around his autonomy being taken out of his control, feeling guilty about events and family who were directly affected by things he was forced to do as the winter soldier. Fear about 'tainting' loved ones, or corrupting them, not being good enough, etc!
akljdfkas OH MY GOSH! Ahh youre doing good things with that tumblr!! :O I'm going to... read through it all ahhhh. Honestly, the minimal interaction between Tony and Bucky in comics is Tragic. ;v;
aaahh nothing to be sorry about at all D: Yessss read the iron man comics! (but careful with fraction's and gillen's run, they're pretty meh) :D But there are some pretty nice iron man comics out there. I read most of Brubaker's Cap, and both Winter Soldier series. The 2014 one was kiiind of weird. But it had this whole thing of changing Bucky from killing a lot of people to ... i think rather not killing at all? And even trying to get a bunch of half-villains on his team to not kill people (all while playing dad to a dangerous 5 year old (gotta love comics :D I can't believe it's canon)). So he has this whole change, but it took YEARS since Steve got him out, where he was fine with killing. Yeah, he probably grew up with that mentality, which is a good point.
OMG, I so have a soft spot for the "Person with dark/gritty past and scary skills uses them for good" trope! (I would read a lot of fanfics about that alone, i think XD)
Oh, interesting comparison! 616 Bucky and MCU tony seem fine with killing, mostly. MCU Bucky on the other hand seems more unwilling to kill (yeah, he still hits people in the head, that could kill them, but, well. I think everyone in these movies somehow survives being hit). I think there was a tiny part in a CACW prelude comic that had him almost killing some evil guys and then running away instead. 616 Tony does kill if he has to, but he really really dislikes it, even if he fights a murderer (as you said, Mallen)
If going off topic includes more awesome character discussion then please do that :D very awesome!
Hehe, I think i might just write bucky as feeling guilty and trying not so show it to everyone. And being worried about hurting his friends, half unconciously maybe. (comics really could have adressed his angst more :D)
awww thank you!! Sadly there isn't much interaction... they started off so GOOD with working together after steve's death!? and then: nothing. I think they haven't talked in 5 years? (i will totally interpret/headcanon their distance as hurt feelings on bucky's side after brain deletion, hehe) I'm still trying to find more stuff (gotta reread fear itself,and possibly original sin, and there is at least one tiny tiny mention in hickmanvengers), and maybe some parallels (I am still laughing so hard about both of them playing dad in their current teams, lol)
Another thing I thought was cute about 616 Winteriron: Did you realize Tony is like 185 cm tall and Bucky around 175 cm? Cute murder-Bucky is a smol tank compared to Tony :D
Regarding MCU Bucky, I feel, is would prefer to keep out of fighting, too!
MCU Bucky has always felt very reactionary to me! He doesn't go looking for fights, he goes looking for Steve, who always gets into fights. He is a good man, and patriotic of course, though I don't think it's ever been clear whether he enlisted or was drafted in the war, TWS clearly has Pierce playing on his sense of ethics and want to do good however he can by reframing his orders to sound like Bucky doing these things are good and right. Still, not a lot of people are nearly as proactive as Steve is, seeking out wrongs and proactively righting them. Bucky won't let something bad happen if he's there to stop it, but seeking out injustice isn't what fuels him like it fuels Steve. Before the war he was dragging Steve to Expos and double dates, he was a young man who wanted to have fun, and if he had to fight in the war than that was his duty. Meanwhile, Steve is actively trying to get enlisted, ready to fight the good fight at all times, etc.
Bucky doesn't get a lot of agency in the MCU, he's always being captured, manipulated, brain-washed, or drug into things by circumstance. The only decisions I think he's actually made are 1) ... Steve Rogers, the little guy; yeah I'll follow him part and 2) his decision to be frozen in wakanda, to remove himself from play.
You can contrast these with 616 Bucky, who actively got camp lehigh to keep him on even though he was underaged and an orphan, because he believed in the cause so much. he discovered Steve's secret identity and immediately used it to get Steve to keep him as his sidekick. While a red room operative, he does little acts of rebellion, anywhere from falling in love with Natasha, to not checking in after missions. He devises missions after recovering his memory in order to redeem himself. Etc.
MCU Bucky I think, just wants a quiet life. Of course, knowing the people he knows, he won't really get it, because it also is not in his nature to let his friends and love ones go into danger without back up. Steve gets into a fight, Bucky will be there. The world is in danger? Bucky is there!
Of course, both MCU and 616 Bucky are heroes, and good people! Neither of their different approaches to recovery is better or worse than the other :V
It's interesting especially when you throw Tony into the mix! MCU Tony became a hero almost incidentally, in that, he built the suit to protect himself and then in the effort to right his wrongs, started to good, heroic things. (I guess, like 616 Bucky, who didn't set out to be a hero, but wanted to fix things). Tony likes being a hero, though wishes it weren't a necessary thing. 616 Tony also built his suit to protect himself, but being a hero and doing good is such a huge part of his identity and being able to live with himself it's kind of scary. I mean, you see it all the time with his Iron Man vs Tony Stark secret identity rigmarole. All, I wish I could stop being Tony Stark. What would people think if they knew their hero was Mr. Stark. Even though, by all accounts Tony Stark is a GOOD DUDE.
alksjfls it's just interesting!! MCU Tony and Bucky just want stability and domesticity tbh and 616 Bucky and Tony need their hero identity (regardless of whether it's a secret identity or not) as a constant reminder that they aren't actually Bad People, they Can Do Good. ((coincidentally 616 Tony and Bucky's standard of ~Good~ is Steve Rogers, which doesn't help when Tony is, recently, always at odds with him To The Point that in the new CWII Tony is like "of course i'm going to agree with Steve Rogers in a moral issue, last time i disagreed it went all to shit. and Bucky has to actually try to live up to Steve's Legacy!!! not that steve, any steve, should be put on such an inhuman pedestal. askjdfskla it's unhealthy for Everyone))
Holy crap i love your commentary! O.O flails
It's interesting how MCU and 616 bucky are just SO different in that motivation. And 616 Bucky with the invaders was so hardcore, and did the things steve couldn't do because he was a symbol. (I mean he smuggled explosives in his arm, wow, Bucky, wtf!)
btw, do you know what the current canon says about Bucky becoming Cap's sidekick? I've heared different things, one being the classic "he found out steve's secret identity by walking in on him, and wanted to be his sidekick" but also "the secret identity story was propaganda and actually he was trained to be cap's sidekick and told about the secret identity". I think no one is really sure anymore, at least the writers aren't... is there any kind of consensus?
I love tony's identity porn stuff :D And all the "Tony stark is not a hero" feels he has going on :D
I'm a little bitter people seem to think steve is this "best person" who can do no wrong.... I mean, he has some points, and he has strong morals, but often enough morals alone don't solve the problem. I am still annoyed everyone seems to act like CW was ALL tony's fault -.- It would do Steve more good to be measured like a normal person sometimes, i think. But people (and characters) sometimes forget that.
... now i have no idea where i was going with this anymore... I love BOTH universes and their tony/bucky setup is interesting in both of them, and I love chatting about it or making up plots! :D
(now i want a MCU fic where bucky and tony try to retire togeher and sometimes get pulled back in)
I'm glad you like my ah, rambly responses!
I have no idea what the current consensus is... I know the classic origin is the original origin. And I also know at some point Marvel retconned Bucky's age at the time into something more palatable. But I have no clue what is current canon.
Steve has a whole dedicated arc, that returns from time to time about him struggling to uphold the Captain America Standard, while still letting himself be Steve Rogers. Having that kind of constant pressure to be Perfect All The Time is horrible, and it's a. A really funny effect that happens in which canon reaction actually becomes reactions that happen in real life!! It's explicitly stated that Steve has this dichotomy in him, he broods and stresses about having to live up to the ideal. It's tragic as well, because he is generally A Very Good Person, but he's human and denying him the capacity to be human is ... his whole struggle!!
MCU Steve feels similarly, in that, when he first became Captain America he felt like a circus monkey, a toy soldier, and he constantly reiterates that He's Just A Boy From Brooklyn, when everyone around him insists on pinning him to this fantastical legend.
And fans stumble into this rhetoric as well! Of not allowing Steve, any iteration of Steve, the allowance that all humans deserve! :v
askljf That is, really off topic.. but! listen... imagine 616 bucky meeting mcu tony and vice versa..... aksjfs PLEASE SOMEONE.. GIVE ME THE GOOD CROSSOVER BETWEEN 616 AND MCU PLEASE,,,, i want as many crossover winteriron fics as there are stevetony ones I Live For Them.
Yes! awesome responses! I love it!
I am unsure about bucky's age as well, although I've read things of Bucky being roughly 16 when he joined cap, and then they went to war for a few years.
Interesting about Steve's arc! I haven't read that much Cap, though ^^; I feel like in the last 10 years of comics, Steve had enough other things to do, leaving not much time to dwell on what it means for him to be cap :D I do like it though when they show him as being Good, but also flawed.
Yeah, Fans tend to fall into it too. But I thnk it happens easily, because since it is super hero comics, Steve ends up being mostly right with his "morality over results" conviction. Because it's a comic, they suddenly find a better solution often enough. Still. Steve should be allowed to be human! and also shown to do something wrong sometimes....
Please throw all of these kind of thoughts at me ok i love it :D I now want thos crossovers even more. A friend had the following idea: MCU, post CACW, Steve and Bucky sit in wakanda. Tony is in danger and somehow 616 Bucky lands there and protects Tony. (He knows Tony and they've been on the same side/working together in 616 a lot). Steve and Bucky somehow see on the news and go "???!!!???". MCU Tony might also be totally freaked out. So much potential to make them look at it from a different side! :D
And now I also want them to meet and bond over how they agree on killing people. MCU Tony and 616 Bucky being ok with killing and their boyfriends trying to stop them :D
I have to admit, I'm definitely a sucker for domestic tropes with these two (at least in the MCU) for much of the reasons the rest of you have talked about - Bucky in the MCU doesn't really seem to want to fight, and no one can say that he doesn't deserve a break. Normally I'm an angst monster but I really enjoy consuming domestic fluff with these two more than anything else?
I'm also in the midst of writing an AU where Bucky retires and ends up going to college and getting an astrophysics degree because that combines retired!Bucky with science nerd Bucky, which is just great. I'm not 100% sure where the sci fi nerd Bucky Barnes trope came from, but I can't say I don't enjoy it - especially in the context of this ship.
I'd definetly read that :D I think part of the science nerd Bucky came from the fact that the date he chose in TFA was the Stark Expo :) In 616 I really don't think he'd be a nerd. BUT in MCU I will gladly take this tiny piece of canon and interpret it as "Bucky at least likes watching science, even if he isn't a scientist himself" because it FITS so well with Tony :D